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Diana:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. Here, you will find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, Disability Studies, disability, advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity and inclusion, and how to frame disability awareness. In the context of educating K through 12 communities, this podcast serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way. Moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's go Beyond Awareness.
Diana:
I'm so excited to have these two incredible women with us today. They are Katy Fattaleh, and you guys correct me if I butcher your names, and Lauren Schrero, is that correct? Okay, so let's just start right off the bat. Can you please introduce yourselves for our audience, for our listeners, and what it is that you do?
Lauren:
Sure. Um, I'm Lauren Schrero. I am the executive director of The Nora Project. The Nora Project is a nonprofit organization. We were founded in 2016 to bring Disability Studies and disability inclusion to schools. Initially, I think the idea was elementary schools, but it's since grown to preschool all the way through high school. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good explanation. I came to this work because I have a child with disabilities. And when I reflected back on my own education, I realized I had never learned about disability and that I was missing out and I wanted to make sure other kids didn't have that experience and that my daughter was more understood than, you know, my disabled peers growing up. So that's a little bit about me.
Diana:
And you also have a TEDx talk that you did at that shares that whole experience in case our listeners want to go to that. And that'll be in the show notes. And Katy?
Katy:
Yeah, I'm Katy Fattaleh. I'm the senior program director at The Nora Project. And, I oversee all of our program development, our professional development, and all of our recruitment and onboarding. So if you're interested in bringing The Nora Project programs to your school or community, you can contact me and I will help you to do that. I am a former teacher and coach and I came to this work, well, I came to this work because I knew the founder, the co-founder of The Nora Project, Loren's cousin, Amanda, we used to teach together and she sort of brought me into the fold of The Nora Project. And disability studies and disability awareness education is important to me because it is an aspect of social justice that makes a big difference in schools. We need to have better classroom settings that welcome all kids and make them all feel like they belong. And we have a lot of work to do so this work feels really important and it speaks to my educator heart, and I am really excited to be here with you.
Diana:
Thanks. All right. So the Nora project, you talk about inclusion, you talk about creating environments where everybody belongs. How does The Nora Project do that? What is your focus with The Nora Project?
Lauren:
So that's a really good question and we have different programs that do it in different ways. But basically, I mean, at its very core, the idea is disability is something that needs to be talked about in schools. I think there's been, you know, because of the medicalizing of disability and, honestly, because of the shame surrounding disability for so long, it's been a secret. We can't talk about it. We don't want to, you know, put a spotlight on any particular child and, and there's some good reasons for that, of course. But when we don't talk about disability and when we make it seem like a shame or a tragedy or something that needs to be separated, we, you know, perpetuate all of the stigma and isolation and otherization of people with disabilities and that doesn't just follow them through school.
It follows, you know, kids through their lives, their adult lives. So number one, the number one thing we want to do is just bring the word into the school, get kids talking about it, understanding that disability is a part of diversity, just like any other part of diversity. It can be a big part of your identity can be small part of your identity that can change over time. Just really want to normalize the idea that disability is a part of the human experience. So that's really number one. And then number two is, you know, because I think at least my generation, so teachers, administrators, grew up without this education, like ideas for how to rethink classrooms and rethink the structures in the classrooms. You know, we, we tend to just keep doing things a certain way because that's how they've been done. And so we want to bring in curriculum and bring in training that helps teachers and administrators, you know, think more creatively about how things can be done differently in a more inclusive way. In terms of like the specifics of each of our programs and how they work, Katy, do you want to talk through a little bit about how the program builds on itself over time?
Katy:
Sure. So we've got, we've got some year-long programs and then we have some shorter units that are all available for pre-K through high school, but our year-long programs basically start with training kids in how to become includers. So giving them those basic emotional regulation and literacy skills, empathy, and friendship skills, and then teaching them about disability as diversity in a basic way in a sort of an introductory way, especially because we're teaching students as young as 3 about disability and then our next program layers on the concept of storytelling and identity. So for students sort of in those intermediate grade levels, they are learning about what, why we tell stories and why it's important to share our stories and how that helps us to develop really strong relationships, empathetic relationships. And then our, our program for middle-schoolers has a component of advocacy layered in.
And so we encourage students to develop their own understanding of inclusion and use that to examine their school environment, to find ways to make it more inclusive. And so there's a lot of big like STEM component to that. And so we also have high school versions of our, our storyteller and our STEMpathy club programs. So we've got really a beautiful range of programming that builds over the course of a student's academic career. And then we have these nifty jumpstart units, which you can buy right on our website. They're between 8 and 10 lessons long. And they sort of distill the content that I just described into three individual units. We've got one that centers around picture books. So that's our dear discussions unit. We've got one that focuses really in on those empathy and friendship skills. It's called our empathy and friendship unit. And then we've got a, a unit called disability 1 0 1, which I co-wrote with a disability activist, Jo Tolley. And that unit goes into, it's a really deep dive into disability rights, disability history, ableism, and essentially how much farther we have to go in the United States to create equity and inclusion for disabled people.
Lauren:
And that disability 1 0 1 unit was written, actually there was a model law, that was sort of proposed about disability studies in schools in the early 2000's. And that law was passed in Illinois and I think at least a dozen other states, and it was written specifically to be in compliance with that law. So to the extent that you are living in is in a state with the disability studies mandate, we have written a curriculum to help bring you into compliance.
Diana:
I love this all so much. Wow. I feel like I'm among spirit sisters here. This is great. So, so one thing that I'm not hearing and that some people might be surprised about with our listeners is that you're not doing any kind of simulation activities like, you're shaking your heads, the listeners can't see that you're shaking your heads no. Tell us more about why that is. Why are there no simulations and why is this so embedded in inclusion and disability history and advocacy. Tell us more about that.
Lauren:
Do you want me to jump in, Katy?
Katy:
I was, I wasn't sure if you were wanting to start. I mean, I can say that there's some pretty compelling research out there that simulations are very detrimental, in a lot of ways damaging, to people with disabilities, but just generally are potentially doing harm by insinuating that by experiencing quote unquote, experiencing another person's disability for a brief period of time that we then know everything there is to know about disability or that we become, we feel this sense of relief, perhaps that we don't have that disability like, oh, it's so much harder to do life as a wheelchair user, which we know if we listen to disabled voices, we know that is just not true. It is, it's the most surface level version of disability awareness education. And it is potentially very harmful if that's all we're doing,
Diana:
Thank you, Katy. I just wanted to clarify for our listeners, some parents and our educators might not have heard the term "simulation activity." So I just want to be clear what that means. So for the traditional, people who've experienced traditional disability awareness activities, they might be things like putting Vaseline on your glasses to learn what it might be like to have low vision, or to wear a blindfold to learn what it might be like to be blind, or to, you know, put in earplugs or sound canceling headphones to learn what it might be like to be deaf, or use a wheelchair for, you know, 20 minutes or a day to learn what it might be like to have a mobility disability and to be a wheelchair user. So what we're talking about, you're saying Katy, that those kinds of activities are not actually helpful, but could be doing more harm than good. Correct. And so the alternative Lauren, did you want to say something about that?
Lauren:
I mean, just all the things that Katy said are right on and, and, you know, with the low vision or the, the, uh, simulation or the deaf or hard of hearing simulations, people don't live with those for brief moments, right. They live with them for their entire lives or for long periods of time. And they build the ability to adapt. And I think one of the great risks of these simulations is pity, right? Like creating pity in non-disabled people. But they haven't had a chance to live and adapt under the new circumstances. And so it's just really an incomplete and dangerous prospect.
Diana:
Yeah. And the other thing, you know, having pity for someone or even empathy, let's say we, we frame it in empathy that you have empathy for that person, and yet you're not addressing societal barriers that disable an individual. Right. So you can completely ignore the fact that society, disables people by not having accessible environments or not having inclusive environments, you know,
Katy:
or having low expectations or not presuming competence, all of those things. Yes,
Diana:
Absolutely. Thank you. All right. So what do you see in your work with The Nora project? What do you see in your work that's easy about inclusion and disability awareness, and what is hard about inclusion?
Katy:
I mean, I think I can start with what feels hard. I don't know that it is hard, but I'll start with what feels hard. I think what feels hard is doing something that is unfamiliar and potentially uncomfortable. So I can speak from experience as a former classroom teacher that I did not receive any training whatsoever in how to support students with disabilities in my classroom. It just didn't come up in my teacher prep, which is criminal, but common. And so I know that I had discomfort around teaching about disability, but I also had discomfort about teaching, what other aspects of diversity, like race and sexual orientation. And when I was confronted with those things as a teacher, it made me uncomfortable and I didn't always know the right path forward. So a lack of training and a lack of resources made it really difficult for me to approach conversations.
And it made me really nervous that I was saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. And of course, as educators, we know the weight of our jobs, we know how important it is that we do them with integrity and that we are giving students the right information. And when we, aren't sure ourselves, it's really hard to jump into the deep end. And so I think what's hard about inclusion is really just knowing what to do and knowing what to say, or at least having somebody in your corner that can help you figure out what to do next.
Diana:
Lauren, did you have anything?
Lauren:
Yeah, I mean, there are other hard elements, uh, of inclusion. I think, I mean, first of all, for kids with significant disabilities and low incidence disabilities, um, there is a lot of support required and a lot of training. And, I'm just speaking now really as a parent of a child, not necessarily as an inclusion advocate, but, you know, for my own child, she uses an AAC device. She requires a lot of physical support. And so just, you know, those resources are not always at the ready in every environment, but one of the cool things about The Nora Project, I think, and I think that has the potential to change the way we think about the support kids need. The kids can actually help each other if we take the time to help kids learn about one another. So I, you know, just again, speaking, just specifically for Nora and thinking really mostly about her device right now you know, it takes time to teach her peers how to engage with her.
It takes time to teach them the expectant pause. It takes, you know, there are, there are elements of this that you don't have to necessarily do for every student that are legitimate challenges, right? I mean, not challenges that they're hard to do, but challenges that they take time and they take effort, they can't automatically happen. But the truth is, you know, relationships don't automatically happen. Ever everything takes time and effort. But let's not also, I don't want to sugar coat it and pretend that it's super easy. Just throw kids together and tell them to be nice to each other. No, there's, there's some work involved. Yeah.
Diana:
There's a commitment involved, right. You have to be committed to it.
Lauren:
And that's what I was going to say is the easy part. The easy part is making the decision that this is a value and that you are going to do what it takes and sort of getting your head around what the components of that are, and then putting one foot in front of the other. I mean, I don't think anything that's required to make a classroom inclusive is rocket science. There are some expenses involved, mostly people I think, um, and a little bit of technology and equipment. But the work itself isn't hard, right? It just, you need to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Right.
Katy:
And if you have already committed yourself to being, for example, an anti-racist educator, or you have committed yourself to just generally like creating a more diverse and welcoming classroom space, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have thought that disability fits into that sphere of diversity. And so what we're trying to help teachers do is, you know, disability, justice fits into that other social justice work that you've already committed to addressing in your classroom. And here are the resources, and here's the language that you can use to address that aspect of diversity, just as you are other aspects of diversity. And that's a journey that a lot of people are just starting. And so we want to make sure that folks have access to the right tools to be able to include disability in their DEI work.
Diana:
Yes, yes. And one thing I want to point out is that The Nora Project walks the walk, you know, walks the talk. I looked at your, the people that you have on your staff at The Nora Project, and you definitely have a lot of diversity. Do you want to share a little bit about that in terms of, you know, just briefly touch on how a diverse staff is so important for you, um, to make sure that you're, you're adequately and appropriately representing the people that you're advocating for through the work of The Nora Project?
Lauren:
Sure. I mean, that's been probably the most interesting learning curve for me personally. The idea of having, you know, first of all, we started out so small and we're still very new. And as we grew our team, it became really clear early on that we needed people with like real lived experience to inform, you know, whether what we were doing was helpful or not. And frankly, in our first three years, we had a lot of feedback about things that we needed to improve about the design of our program and the way students with disabilities felt when they were, you know, participating in the program and sort of, some unintended impacts that were real impacts. And of course, you know, having the right people in the room is so critical. So, you know, we've been listening to disabled voices for a long time, and it's been a perpetual goal of ours to include those on our staff and on our board.
I think we're finally beginning to sort of reflect the community we are serving. But that's taken a little bit of time, but what I will say is that our colleagues who identify as disabled have been huge assets to us in terms of our thinking, in terms of program design, in terms of our own ability to sort of understand the ability to inclusive mindset and the complexity of disability. So we always prioritize diverse applicants. I remember actually when I interviewed for my very first job, the, it was at a law firm and the partner I interviewed with said, we're looking for people who are strange in a way no one else at this firm is strange. I remember being like, I really like that. And I'm really strange. Let me tell you all the ways strange. But that's how we feel on our team. We want to bring people in with new perspectives, new ideas, new lived experience, and basically just ways to add to our understanding of what the curriculum looks like.
Diana:
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. And if you hear babies in the background, that is okay. That is okay. This is reality. You might hear a little bit of noise in my background too, at some point. So no worries about that. Oh gosh. This is amazing. I love hearing you guys talk about your work and, and your commitment. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to share with our audience about the work of disability awareness for parents and or educators that might be listening?
Katy:
I mean, I would love to say to teachers, to educators in general, like what Lauren mentioned about kids helping one another, this concept of co-regulation is something that I think we don't pay enough attention to as educators. And one of the most beautiful outcomes of our work is that students that are doing Nora project programs develop stronger relationship skills, and they learn about each other in a way that allows them to take ownership of, of supporting one another in the classroom. And that takes the burden off of the teacher. And I don't think when we're thinking about classroom management, we're thinking about systems that we can put in place in language that we can use. But if we can create strong, inclusive communities where students feel empowered to support one another, they can help us within those systems to co-regulate one another. So an example being we had, we have one of our favorite stories is a, is a former Nora Project teacher who was a little late getting into class one day.
And the neighbor teacher let her students in to start their morning routine. And she had one student who every morning she would write out, uh, some, some steps to follow, just supporting executive functioning for one student and she wasn't there. And so one of his peers was like, Ryan let's, you know, write out the steps and, and supported that peer without any teacher having to tell them to do so without, you know, there, there wasn't any reward involved. It was just a recognition that like this, this kid benefited from this support and like, oh, well, if my teacher's not here, I can do it. No problem. Didn't even think about it. And imagine what that scenario would have been like if a peer hadn't supported that student. And then there might've been like dysregulation, which could throw off a whole day. So the idea that we can create community that allows kids to support one another is a really powerful and compelling reason to jump in to this kind of work. So that's my plug.
Diana:
Yeah. That is actual community that is authentic community. My eyes are welled up with tears. That was a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing that. I love it. I have multiple stories to share similar in nature about students being authentically inclusive and our community just embracing everybody. Oh gosh. Anything else, Lauren, anything else?
Lauren:
I mean, all I would add is that disability inclusion, benefits all kids. And it does, I know there's this like weird gut reaction that is not based in research or fact that, you know, including kids with disabilities, especially with intellectual disabilities or autism is somehow, you know, taking away from non-disabled learners. That is not true. There's no research to support it. In fact, the research says mostly the opposite, either that all students are as well-off in an inclusive environment is not, or that kids on the whole do better. And there are so many sort of non-academic aspects to diversity and inclusion and collaborating and working with people who are different from you. They're just valuable for life and all kids benefit when all kids are in classrooms together. And we see it over and over, a lot of the, you know, tools that are used to support kids with disabilities actually help all kids learn. And so, it's just a myth that I think sits out there. And, I just feel like that's one last thing to say is that if your fear is that it's somehow going to take away from non-disabled students, that that is not, not real. And we love to share some data with you from our classrooms and you know, from other researchers.
Diana:
Yeah. When it's done, when it, when inclusion is done, right. You know, when it's done in a responsible fashion, absolutely it benefits everybody. Thank you again, Katy and Lauren, for being with us here at Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. Thank you so much.
Diana:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness, Disability Awareness That Matters. If this was helpful to you, be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me Diana on Instagram @dianapastoracarson and on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Or you can go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. My books include Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities, as well as my children's book, Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights. They can both be found on Amazon. For your free Beyond Awareness resource called the "5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness," simply go to www.GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys. This podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again for joining me. Be well, be a lifelong learner and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
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