Diana:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. Here, you will find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, Disability Studies, disability, advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity and inclusion, and how to frame disability awareness. In the context of educating K through 12 communities, this podcast serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way. Moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's go Beyond Awareness.
Diana:
I'm so excited to have my guest Tim Villegas here with us today on Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. Thank you so much, Tim, for being here.
Tim Villegas:
It's my pleasure. Very happy to virtually meet you.
Diana:
Yeah, thanks. Yes. We've been connected for many years, over 15 years just on the internet. And so it is lovely to meet you. I want you to start with just an introduction for people who don't know who you are, which, I mean, you're all over the internet, all over social media. I was at a conference and saw a quote from you at this conference that wasn't even an elementary or, you know, middle school or high school education conference. It was an adult SDSU conference and your quote was up on the screen. So share with us who you are and why you're the perfect guest to have here today, what you're passionate about.
Tim Villegas:
I don't know about the perfect guest, but so yeah, my name is Tim Villegas. I taught in public school for 16 years, 13 as a self-contained classroom, segregated self-contained special education classroom teacher. I think I said all that right. I spent three years as a district support specialist and then most recently left public education to work in the system to work at a nonprofit called the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, otherwise known as MCIE, as their director of communications. So alongside of my communications role, I'm the founder of Think Inclusive, which is a blog since 2012 I think was our official launch. And the host of the Think Inclusive podcast, which has been around for about as long And very happy to be in this role because I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but it's very difficult to make change inside a system, an educational system, that doesn't want to change. So,me working outside of the system has definitely, it's been good for me, good for my soul. And I'm very fortunate to have this position.
Diana:
That's awesome. I'm really happy for you too, that you are in that position now. So you mentioned, you know, the frustration with being in a certain type of system. Tell us what were the systemic barriers that you faced, you know, and what was it that you were trying to do when you were teaching in the, in a classroom, in a self-contained classroom for those 13 years? And what were those barriers?
Tim Villegas:
Well, I'd like to first just say that, you know, I, wasn't always such a, I guess, promoter of inclusion. You know, when I first started as an educator, I firmly believed that students with disabilities specifically autism, which is where, you know, where I got my start as a behavior therapist working for, with young children, so three and four years old, I firmly believed that children with autism should be educated separately. And that only specially trained people who knew how to work with kids on the autism spectrum, you know, should be, should be interacting with them. And then once they were able to, I don't know, acclimate to a typical environment, then they could be in a regular education class.
Diana:
To get ready first. You had to prepare them for that.
Tim Villegas:
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure you hear that a lot. I heard that a lot. I was wrong of course. And so if you're listening to this and you have still have that mindset, I understand where you're coming from. And it really wasn't until my first real teaching job in a public school in Pasadena, California, that I saw inclusion, you know, up close and was able to say, oh, this actually, you know, this thing actually works. And it was because my professor at Cal State University Fullerton,you know, made it an assignment. So and I'm not sure what the credentials are like in California these days, but I had a provisional certificate, which meant I went through part of my teacher training. I was able to get a job. In special education,there was a shortage.I'm not sure if there is one now again, I think there's a teacher shortage period.
Tim Villegas:
So I was able to get a job without completing my credential and in my coursework, my professorI think she taught, it was positive behavior support. And she's like, look, I want you to pick a, I want you to pick a student to include in a regular class. And don't pick one that is, you think was, is easy. Think, think about one that you'd never think would ever survive in a regular education class. And I said, oh, I've got the perfect one. You know? And so I picked Nathan. Nathan is not his real name. But what ended up happening was I went through the process of looking at Nathan's strengths, looking at you know, what he was interested in and designed a lesson around a social studies lesson with a fifth grade teacher in a general ed class and used his strengths to include him in that class.
Tim Villegas:
So, you know, Nathan is a non-speakerHe had a lot of you know, behavioral challenges part of it because of his sensory needs and stuff like that. And so, but when he was cutting or when he was ripping paper, that seemed to calm him and it was, it was just a natural activity that he, he really enjoyed doing. So in this fifth grade class we were working on topography maps. And so if you know what that is, it's like a, yeah, it's like using cardboard and cutting the cardboard in little strips so that it would make a 3d relief map. And so what we would have Nathan do is he would sit down and cut out the maps. He was engaged. He had no sort of challenging behavior. This was something he loved to do.
Tim Villegas:
He was included, he was, it was meaningful. And it opened my eyes to realize that we just have to plan for inclusion. It's it's not enough to say, oh, we'll just put the kids in the room together. You know, ones that have been typically segregated in with,you know, typically developing or in gen ed, you know, we just got to stick them all together. Like there's a lot more that goes to it. And then once I realized, oh, like, oh, you just plan, you know, you just plan to make sure that they're successful. That made me go, well, why can't I do this for all of my kids? Like, I can do this. Like if I can do it for Nathan, I can do it for, you know,for Ringo or I can do it for Paul or I can do it for, you know, whoever.
Tim Villegas:
So that's what I did that set me on the road to obsessive find how to make inclusion work in my school. And I spent, you know, 13 years in self-contained environments doing that. And it was not easy becauselike you said, we said at the beginning, the system is set up for us to have two separate systems. And we've been doing it so long. We've been separating kids for so long that everyone kind of expects for this to happen. And if you aren't familiar with the special education system, you think it works. You know, you think like if you're a general education teacher and you're not used to teaching students with disabilities and you see the classroom down the hall and you know, they, they do all their lessons and they eat lunch, you know, at the same table every time.
Tim Villegas:
And they have their own special corner when you go to assembliesand they ride the special bus and all this stuff, if you're not intricately involved in the special education system, you just think that like, oh, well, they've got their world and we've got our world. And sometimes we meet together and, you know, sometimes we don't. But you don't realize just how broken that system is until we start to try to integrate them. And then a lot of times, general education teachers and administrators who, you know, don't know that they're just like, wait, wait a minute, like this isn't going to work. So my message has always been, we need a new system. We've had a broken system for a very long time. We're way past overdue on authorization for the individuals with disabilities education act. We need, we need some change we need to, we need to do better.
Diana:
Yeah, well, kudos to your professor and kudos to you for allowing that transformation to happen within you. It takes a lot of courage to step back and reevaluate your beliefs the way that you did. And for Nathan, I mean, I don't know where Nathan is now. Nathan may not have had the opportunity to continue that way once you stepped out of his educational life. But I do know for my brother Joaquin, if he had had a support like you, somebody who is willing to reevaluate, he may not have ended up in an institution ultimately later in life. And so I just, I think some people listening might be saying, well, why is that system so broken? You know, if they're having fun in their classroom, they're singing their songs, the days of the week and the months of the year.
Diana:
And, and they're you know, practicing their cutting skills and they get to watch Barney later on in the day. Why is that so bad? You know, if they're happy, well, how is that broken? So I, I think that what, what I try to focus on, and I know that you do too, and it becomes like, we don't realize that we're swimming in water because we're always in water. We've never been out of water, kind of. And so some people who are outside of the water might be looking in and saying, what's wrong there. And we're like, well, in the, in the long haul, where is Nathan going to end up? What is Nathan's quality of life going to be? Is Nathan going to have friends who are going to know him when he's an adult who are part of the law enforcement system who are part of the healthcare system who are part of social services, who are his neighbors, you know, and community members who work at the grocery store, or run businesses and can hire him. You know, those are the things that we are looking for when we talk about why is the system broken? It's not because there's anything wrong with the special education teacher. There's nothing wrong with the aides that are working with those students. There's nothing wrong with the students and there's nothing wrong with coming together, but what do you see as wrong? I mean, I said too much, but what do you see as ultimately broken about that system? What goes wrong when that's our only option for our students?
Tim Villegas:
Well, I think the simplest answer or a simple answer is that, well, number one expectations, right? Everything that you just talked about, about maybe someone's mindset of, well, why is it bad, you know, for them to be happy, right? You know, the goal, the goal should be to prepare students to be in the real world, you know, and that's not just a special education thing. You know, when I send my kids to school, you know, there's standards, you know, and there's content to be learned. But I also send them to public school because I want them to learn how to live in a community. And when we have two systems, and segregated systems, the students with disabilities who are segregated, they only learn how to live with other people who are disabled. So how is that preparing them to live in a community?
Tim Villegas:
And on the other hand too kids who are in regular classes or, you know, are typically developing, how, how are they learning to live in a community that has people with disabilities? So right off the bat, the expectation that there needs to be two separate systems is inherently like an ableist like construct,and really, you know, and that sounds, you know, I don't want to come off too harsh or strong, but I use language intentionally,ableism and segregation, you know, when most people hear the word segregation, they think of you know, like brown vs board of education and how people of color were typically educated in separate schools and stuff like that. So in my mind there is no difference when you are segregating students with disabilities or people of color,that is why I use that.
Tim Villegas:
It's a strong word. People don't like it. A lot of my colleagues didn't like it when I said that. But that is, that's why I use it. And then ableism is really just a branch off of racist or racism. It's a way of thinking that because of my abilities, I am better or more privileged than a person who does have disabilities. And so we're kind of this system is, is it's all baked into the system. So if we think about students as just students, right. I'm sure you've heard the term, like, you know, students with disabilities are general education students first, you knowReally they're all students, right? Every single one of them. And so if you're an educator, you teach all students, or at least you should.
Tim Villegas:
And so by having these two separate systems in two separate classes, you're really just perpetuating the belief that it should be like that in the first place. So there's a lot of unlearning and undoing that we have to do. And I liked how you said that there's, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with the teachers or the paraprofessionals. And I would agree with that as long as they have the mindset, right, as long as they have that mindset that belonging is for everyone. Every student that goes to a particular school belongs in that school. The problem is when you have educators say, well, because this student acts a certain way, doesn't learn the same way,you know, has different abilities than, well, this student doesn't belong here. And I've certainly heard that before out of educators. Now, I'm sure you have too.
Diana:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and we were both participants in that, you know, we were both teaching a self-contained classroom in the past in special education, and we did what we had to do, and we didn't have any role models at the time to show us that something different could work. And you're here saying that something different can work and that you, you tested it, you tried it, you, you shifted your mindset. And that is possible. You said you were a firm believer, right? I think those were your words. You were a firm believer that segregated classrooms for students and especially students with autism and, or significant behavior or communication support needs belonged in a separate environment for learning. And that has completely shifted. And that is a testament to having an open mind and being willing to try it. And so, you know, teachers who, I know some really amazing special education teachers who do what they can in their classrooms, because there's no administrative support for anything different and they do their best, but there's only so much you can do when you're confined to a system. So my next question is what would be any recommendation for resources or supports outside of someone's school or school district that teachers, whether they're gen ed or special education teachers could tap into to help support them keeping their vision, not getting discouraged and feeling like they're supported in providing their students with the best that they can in terms of community belonging on their campuses.
Tim Villegas:
Sure. This podcast is going to be great, you know, for them. Right.
Diana:
Thank you, yes, I hope so!
Tim Villegas:
And and of course, you know, listen to the Think Inclusive podcast if you are into podcasts.
Diana:
Yes, I do all the time.
Tim Villegas:
Listen to Julie Causton The Inclusion PodcastThere's a number of them out there. And I think, you know, I was really excited to hear that you were starting this because I was recently talking to someone and I said, look I want someone like, I want to see more inclusive education-focused podcasts, blogs, books, articles. You know, when I started this, there was very few resources. And now it feels like there's a lot, there's a lot more, you know. Shelley Moore, you know, has a video seriesHer book, One Without the Other, I'm hoping I'm saying that right. I apologize, Shelley, if I said that wrong. Jenna Rufo is another one that comes to mind. She just wrote a book with Julie Causton called Re-Imagining Special Education. The Inclusion Toolbox is one that I always refer to. That's a book by Jennifer Kurth from the University of Kansas, and Megan Gross. And Megan Gross is in San Diego. Which aren't you in San Diego?
Diana:
I am in San Diego.
Tim Villegas:
Yeah. So Megan Gross works for Poway Unified.
Diana:
Oh, yes. I've heard her on another podcast. It might've been yours actually.
Tim Villegas:
Yeah. We just, we recently had her and I think it's Diane Brundrett. But talking about what they're doing in Poway. So there's, there's a ton more resources you know, but of course, you can go to Think Inclusive or MCIE. We've got lots of great resources. But my point is that if you are struggling to find resources don't be afraid to just, you know, create it yourself. You know, I want to see more and more because if you know, 10 years down the road and we have like a hundred more inclusion-focused podcasts, I think that's a win. Because one of the things that I want to stress is that you know, inclusive education is losing a public relations battle. Like we're just really losing because there's less people who believe in this philosophicallythan there are people who want specialized segregated spaces. And so we have to tell our story, we have to come on the podcasts we have to write, we have to make videos. We have to tell our colleagues, this is how the idea spreads. And, and so I want, I want people to feel free to go in and share this information, and then also just, you know, create it yourself. I will be out there sharing what you create. So like, you know, like this, once this comes out, we're going to be sharing that.
Tim Villegas:
I think that's so important, you know, some of us have the resources to be able to share. And some people don't, some who have been silenced in particular. So it's really, I feel like it's a responsibility to amplify the voices of the people who have been silenced through our system. And when I say that, I mean, our students, you know, who haven't been allowed to be participants in their own plans, their own educational journey in terms of making decisions, they, there has been no emphasis on self-determination and going with students' strengths. I mean, we hear that, like, it's a platitude, you know teach to your students' strengths, but that only applies to the students who don't have an IEP sometimes, or who don't who don't have significant communication and behavior support needs. So, yes, I agree with you that we need to, we need to get out there. We need to have a louder communication and share what we're learning and support one another. We need to build our community of inclusionists, as you say. And I count myself as one of those inclusionists for sure.
Tim Villegas:
So I guess if you are listening and you're feeling hopeless which is easy. It's easy to feel that wayKnow that there's a lot of people out therethat do want to change. They do, they do want to make change. We just need to know who you are. And so I like that you, you know, I love that you're using the word inclusionistIt's something, it's a word that's really important to me. That's what I use, I try to use a lot to bring it back into our vocabulary. But inclusion is, to me is a, is a collaborator. You know, it's someone who is is not just about saying the things that are wrong with the system. But it's, you know, showing a different way, you know? And one of the things with my work in the nonprofit, in MCIE, that I've seen is that school districts are actually making change and it is sustainable.
Tim Villegas:
So really looking at how we can provide support to all students is you know, in general, the way that we are going to get rid of siloed systemsMulti-Tiered Systems of Support, if you are familiar with that you know, a lot of districts are implementing something like that. But it, even as a way to be to bring equity to students, we can't have an equity discussion without including the students with disabilities. So the systems and structures are actually already there, like we know to do it. But mindset to me is still the biggest barrier to inclusive practices, which is why communication is really important to me. It's been important to me since the very beginning, but it's just it's become solidified for me that we need to get people on board and we need, we need, need to know who you are. So if you're an inclusionist, if you feel like, you know, we are your people, you know, reach out where I feel like we're a small world sometimes, you know but we need to know who you are so that we can equip you. And so you can tell your story to your colleagues and friends and parents.
Diana:
That's beautiful. Great. Yes, I agree. Absolutely. Okay. Tim, any last words of wisdom from you?
Tim Villegas:
Any last words of wisdom? I think my, my main message and something that I try to, I try to make sure everyone understands is that you know, we need to, we need to tell our story. So if you have a turning point, like I did with Nathan, I want you, I want the listener, to think about what that turning point is. You know, and maybe that turning point is this conversation that you're listening to, or maybe it is you know, when you're listening to Shelley Moore, you know, in, in her video about, you know, the evolution of inclusion or, you know, maybe it is you know, reading a book and all of a sudden you have that, that turning point. If you have one, I just want you to tell someone, you know, just tell someone that, you know what, I used to think this, but now I think this, or I used to think that separate autism classrooms were a good thing, but now I'm just, I'm not so sure. And so you tell someone, so those are, that's how we can create some momentum just on the grassroots level. So that's what I would, that, that's what I would say. Just encourage you to do that. You know, there's a lot of things that still need to be done policy-wise but at a very, at the very grassroots, you know, that's, that's my call to action for anyone who's listening.
Diana:
I love that so much. Yes, yes, yes, yes. We have influence over our circles, you know, and that authentic and vulnerable statement that you tell somebody may just completely shift what their beliefs are and make them aware of some of their own abelist tendencies and reevaluate them, and maybe be more open to having children with significant disabilities included in their classrooms as well.
Tim Villegas:
Yeah. Oh, and one more thing,
Diana:
Another word of wisdom.
Tim Villegas:
Where, where is it? I was going to hold it up. I have a book by, oh, I got, this is, I know wait, this is audio.
Diana:
I have that book too. I, I wish I had it right here, but it's over there, but I love the book you're holding up, Tim!
Tim Villegas:
Demystifying Disability by Emily Ladau. I think is a great introduction to this idea of an ableist system. It's very reader-friendly and I think it'd be great to put in every educator's hands. So yes, that would be a good one.
Diana:
It is a great one and I will be interviewing Emily Ladau as well, in the next couple of weeks. So thank you so much, Tim Villegas. I'm so happy that you joined us today. Thank you for your time, your energy and all of the great work that you do.
Tim Villegas:
Oh, it's an honor. Thank you.
Diana:
All right. Take care.
Diana:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness, Disability Awareness That Matters. If this was helpful to you, be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me Diana on Instagram @dianapastoracarson and on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Or you can go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. My books include Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities, as well as my children's book, Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights. They can both be found on Amazon. For your free Beyond Awareness resource called the "5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness," simply go to www.GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys. This podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again for joining me. Be well, be a lifelong learner, and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
