Diana Pastora Carson:
Latin Pop Music
Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. Here, you will find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, Disability Studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity and inclusion, and how to frame disability awareness. In the context of educating K through 12 communities, this podcast serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way. Moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's go Beyond Awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Emily Ladau, I'm so happy that you came on to be with me and our listening audience. Today. You have a podcast called The Accessible Stall and you have this amazing book that's all over social media right now called Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to be an Ally. Could you also please just introduce yourself and tell us what you're passionate about and why you're qualified to talk to educators about what we're gonna talk about today?
Emily Ladau:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So as you mentioned, I'm Emily Ladau. I am a writer. I am a speaker, I'm a storyteller. And most importantly, I'm a very passionate disability rights activist. And I do all of this through my own lens, which is as a white woman with a physical disability. And so I very much acknowledge the ways in which my privilege and my marginalization connect. And I always give the caveat that the reason that I'm qualified to talk about disability is yes, based on my personal experience, but I'm also not the only person qualified by any means to talk about disability. There's 1.3 billion disabled people in the world. That means you're gonna have 1.3 billion experiences, opinions, and I represent and speak for only myself. But I do it with passion for not only sharing my story, but amplifying the stories of disabled people all around the world.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Emily. So why were you compelled to write a book? Why were you compelled to educate nondisabled people and disabled people alike about the experience, about your lived experience of disability and the lived experiences of others who have shared their experience of disability with you?
Emily Ladau:
Disability is still such a taboo topic. And whenever we encounter discussion of it, there's a pretty good chance that it comes from a very negative, stereotypical viewpoint. And so my hope was that I could create a bridge for people who are so often exposed to disability as a bad thing. Disability is something that we push to the side and we don't talk about something to be ashamed of instead of proud of. I wanted to shift that narrative, but in order to do it, we first have to acknowledge that yes, disability can be a little bit intimidating or overwhelming to learn about because of the diversity of the disability community. And because it's not something that we're currently communicating about actively, especially not in educational spaces. It's not as though it's part of mainstream school curricula. It's rarely part of courses that future teachers take to prepare for teaching.
Emily Ladau:
And so when there's such a gap in that conversation, that gap in knowledge is to be expected. And I figured if I could offer a starting point, if I could provide some guidance on language and a little bit about history, a little bit about media representation and etiquette, and then talking about ableism and accessibility and what all of that really means, that it would give people a comfortable entry point into these conversations. And that's not to say that my book is meant to be the definitive guide to disability. It's not being encyclopedia of disability or the Bible of disability. It's one person's attempt to welcome people into the conversation. And you mentioned both disabled and non-disabled people. So I always clarify that the book is not just meant for non-disabled people. It's also very much meant for the disability community, because just because you have a disability, doesn't mean that you're the expert on all disabilities. So this is an invitation for everyone to engage in further learning and exploration and conversation, and to do so, knowing that this is not your ending point, this should be just one point on your journey of learning about disability.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you. What do you think that children and youth should be learning about by way of any disability awareness activities inside and outside of school, or even outside of a disability awareness context? What are some of the main, main topic areas that children and youth need to be learning about?
Emily Ladau:
That's a great question. And I think that there is an inclination to teach about disability in the sense of this charity model, where you're supposed to be nice to someone because they have a disability. And then there's this inclination that we have to do disability simulations where we give children earplugs or noise canceling headphones, or a blindfold or something. And we say, okay, try to put yourself in these people's shoes for an hour. And you know, suddenly you'll develop empathy and then you'll be nice to them because that's the right thing to do. And we do the right thing. And that is just not the right way to go about it because it automatically others disabled people. And then nondisabled students are left thinking that their disabled peers are community service projects and not just people that they can be friends with like anybody else.
Emily Ladau:
And on top of that, you run the very real risk of tokenizing certain students with disabilities. You run the risk of erasing certain students with disabilities because again, there's apparent and non-apparent disabilities. And you can't simply simulate someone's experience because their experience is unique to their body and to their mind. So what I encourage educators to teach about is not what disability feels like, but rather how disability is part of the human experience part of society, and to talk very openly, and honestly about how disability overlaps with other identities. I don't think we give children enough credit for how quickly they will pick up on the beauty and the diversity of the world around them. And then adults are the ones who push the messages on them that certain people need to be treated to differently. That's just not true. What we can do is facilitate these conversations on equal ground for everyone, and really offer a place to explore your identity, to explore the identity of your classmates. And just to be open and honest about disability, rather than relegating it to a one day or a one week unit, and then washing your hands of it and being done with it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right. Well, you brought up intersectionality and the multiple identities and experiences of people. And I wanna point to a passage in Demystifying Disability where you considered "the gutting story of Seven Bridges, (I'm quoting the book now), a 10-year-old Black boy with a disability who took his own life in 2019 after being subjected to vicious, racist, and ableist bullying by his classmates. He was attacked with slurs, choked, and mocked for needing an ostomy bag, an external pouch that collects body waste. We can't look at these actions separately. The way this young boy was treated was very much based on the coexistence of his two minor identities." Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that?
Emily Ladau:
Absolutely. So I think that intersectionality is a buzzword that we throw around and we think that if we throw it around enough, then that must mean that we're accomplishing something. But we really need to dig deep to understand that what intersectionality is talking about is the ways that multiple identities and forms of oppression overlap to create a person's experience. So if we're talking about the story of Seven Bridges, (which is honestly, an incredibly heavy story, so I encourage anyone who looks further into it to proceed with care and take good care of yourself because it can be triggering), but because he was a young, disabled Black boy, there were two types of marginalization that were affecting the way that others perceived him and treated him. We can't take either of those in isolation because that's just not how we perceive people. When we look at someone, when we're engaging with someone, there's more than one thing that defines that person and defines how we interact with that person, whether we're conscious of it or not, these intersecting identities affect people's experiences. And we simply can't overlook that when we're talking about disability.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Emily, what would you suggest or implore educators to do in order to prevent these kinds of situations? How can we talk to children? Or, you know, how can we be when we have students in our presence, in our classrooms, on our campuses who have diverse support needs and diverse ways of looking and being in the world as well?
Emily Ladau:
Children absolutely learn what they live. And so if you are a young person bearing witness to adults who are mistreating disabled people, or who think that they're well-intentioned, but are actually being condescending or patronizing, or somehow othering disabled people, kids are going to pick up on that. So we have to first think about the behavior that we're modeling in the classroom and how we're engaging with and treating disabled students and disabled adults. I would hope, certainly, that there would be disabled adults who are colleagues, but, you know, I think that's a conversation for another day, but really considering how you are engaging and the behaviors that you are showing. That's the first thing to do. The second thing to do is to encourage healthy conversation and curiosity. So on the one hand, you don't want children just going up and asking nosey and rude questions, right?
Emily Ladau:
But on the other hand, if a child has a very honest question, there's a way to engage with that and say, you know, you're very observant, good for you for observing this particular difference. Let's talk about why that's actually a good thing. Let's talk about the differences in experience. And I don't don't mean tokenize a student. I don't mean put a student on the spot and turn them into a teachable moment, but incorporate these kinds of conversations into your daily classroom practices so that it becomes natural and it doesn't become othering, so that you're encouraging students to have that healthy curiosity without that rudeness, without that imposition. There's a balance and it's difficult to strike. I understand that you take each situation as it comes, but if we're fostering that open dialogue and we're fostering that healthy curiosity to learn about the world around us, and not just shushing kids and saying, shhh, we don't talk about disability, that's not okay to talk about, you know, imagine the difference it'll make.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, you're talking about basic, respectful inclusivity here, what we would want for, and you even mention it in your book as well is treat others how you would wanna be treated really. And so think about that, how that child feels in your classroom setting or on your campus. Is there true belonging because people treat that child with respect and expect that respect? And that's established through those conversations that you're talking about. Thank you for that. So what are some other ways that... In your book, you talk a lot about ableism. So what are some ways that ableism, in your opinion, is evident within our education system?
Emily Ladau:
First, I think we have to set a basic framework for how I understand ableism in terms of a definition, a working definition, certainly not the only definition. There are ones that go more in depth. But for me, I define it as attitudes and actions and circumstances that devalue people on the basis of disability. And so education is, unfortunately, one of the worst offenders when it comes to ableism. And I think I could spend all day talking about the ways that ableism shows up in education, but to talk about some of the broader systemic points. First of all, we need to think about the ways in which disabled students are segregated so often, rather than welcomed into inclusive classrooms that accept and accommodate all students learning needs. We need to think of out the ways in which students are often directed into different pipelines, dependent on their disabilities and dependent on their other identities.
Emily Ladau:
We need to think about how students engage on a day to day basis within their school environments. Is their school environment accessible? You know, for example, when I was starting elementary school, I could not go to the school that was nearest my house in my district because it had two floors and no elevator. So I had to go to a school that was further away. And 30 years later, I finally saw a news article that they installed an elevator in that elementary school that I couldn't go to. So everything from the environment to the attitudes to the lessons we teach, and the lessons we don't teach What's missing from the curriculum? What's missing from the conversation? There's so many ways that ableism shows up in education. But I also believe that there are so many people who are actively trying to dismantle that.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Do you think that addressing ableism in the educational system, does that do anything to promote the causes of other social justice endeavors?
Emily Ladau:
I love that question, and absolutely because the way that society is set up education is what leads to other pathways for students. And so if we are not setting students up to succeed in an educational environment, are we then setting them up to fail when it comes to equal access to employment, for example? And consider the fact that employment is, for better or worse, so deeply connected with access to other things like healthcare, right? So there's really a huge ripple effect. If we're not setting students up for success, if we're not creating inclusive, welcoming, accessible environments in the school system, then there's going to be an immediate effect on how they proceed throughout their life because we've not set them up for success. And we also need to keep in mind that our traditional understandings of the pathways that we're supposed to follow in life can be in and of themselves ableist. You know, we sort of expect that there will be a trajectory of education, higher education, employment, you know, relationships, right? And that is not a pathway that one needs to follow to be a full human being and to live a full life. But because these are the systems that we have in place, we need to make sure that these systems work for everyone who are involved in them.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Absolutely. Thank you. Are there any other things that you think that educators need to know, specifically when it comes to how we share with students, how we, how we engage with one another, as adults, as educators, as administrators, with our families in the schools, whether they be families of children with disabilities or children who are nondisabled? Any thoughts there?
Emily Ladau:
I think that bettering our own practices comes from understanding that we are never done learning and that we're never the expert on anything. And so I urge people in my book to keep going once they've finished it, to take a look at some of the resources in the back, to do some of your own homework. The best way that we can improve the world or everyone is if we are being conscious of what we're doing to learn about the people around us and to think outside of the bubbles and the vacuums and the echo chambers that we tend to exist in. And so that's an active practice that I'm focusing on is, even though I've literally written a book about disability, I do not think I am done learning about disability. And so my hope is that anybody who is kind enough to pick up my book, and I don't mean kind in the sense of a good deed, but just kind in the sense that I am grateful, you know, for your time in reading it, knows that that's just one point of learning, and there's a world of things to learn out there.
Emily Ladau:
So don't stop learning, keep going, and that's gonna make every interaction you have better, and it's gonna make the world a more inclusive and accessible place for everybody.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Emily, I love that so much. And I also love that within your podcast and throughout the book, and any time I've heard you speak, you're always talking about being a lifelong learner. And I want to point out to our listeners that you were actually on Sesame Street when you were 10 years old, and you were learning from others who had paved that way before you on Sesame Street. And then you talk about your mom who saw somebody on Zoom who had the same disability condition and what the impact of that was. So I want to thank you for being a person that somebody can learn from, and being open and honest and authentic with how you present yourself, you know, not necessarily as the expert, although I know myself and many others consider you, and many others that we learn from, experts. And I highly recommend to our audience that you get Emily's book. It's a wonderful, cohesive step in your personal and professional development. Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to be an Ally. Is there anything else you want to say, Emily? Any last words of wisdom for us who are continuing on our lifelong learning journey?
Emily Ladau:
I'll just urge everyone to continue seeking out authentic disability representation, learning directly from disabled people. What you said rings so true about people who paved the way before me. And my hope is that if I can pave the way for somebody else, then I'll have done my job. And if you can bring that authentic representation into your learning process, into your classrooms, that change is going to have a ripple effect. It absolutely is. I believe in changing one mind at a time and doing so openly and authentically. We'll get there.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Awesome. Thank you, Emily.
Emily Ladau:
Thank you so much for having me.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. If this was helpful to you, be sure to subscribe, rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me Diana on Instagram @dianapastoracarson and on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Or you can go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. My books include Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities, as well as my children's book, Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights. They can both be found on Amazon. For your free Beyond Awareness resource called the "5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness," simply go to www.GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys. This podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again for joining me. Be well, be a lifelong learner, and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Latin Pop Music
