Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. Here, you will find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, Disability Studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity and inclusion, and how to frame disability awareness. In the context of educating K through 12 communities, this podcast serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way. Moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's go Beyond Awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hello, and welcome back to Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. I am excited to introduce you to two people who I have recently met, but who are famous and wonderful in my view, because I've heard about the great work they are doing in the Poway Unified School District. So I'm gonna welcome both Megan Gross and Nancy Brundrett. And have you guys introduce yourselves a little bit more in detail, welcome to the podcast.
Nancy Brundrett:
Thank you. My name is Nancy Brundrett. This is my 29th year working for Powerway unified school district. I started my journey and, and passion working for, with students. As an instructional assistant, I did that for many, many years and then morphed into this different position that we will talk about later on of making sure that our campuses and our spaces are more inclusive for all students. So I'm very passionate about the work that I do, and I am lucky enough to work besides this, beside this amazing Megan Gross. So it's, it's been a dream.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Lovely. Thank you. Thank you, Nancy. And Megan.
Megan Gross:
Hi, I'm Megan Gross. We're so happy to be here with you today, Diana. I, this is my 15th year as a special education teacher way back in the two thousands, which makes me feel really old I entered the disability services field as a respite care provider and working in group homes. And so that led me on a path to special education. And I was lucky enough to do my credential at Sacramento State in Northern California with the fabulous Dr. Kathy Gee and Jean Gonsier-Gerdin. And so I was taught as a baby teacher that inclusive education is what we do. And so I've never known anything different as an expectation for a special education teacher. And so it's been the work that I've done for the past 15 years now. So we're really excited to continue it now, just not in our own classroom spaces where Nancy and I have historically worked but to get to help teachers across our district has been really powerful and meaningful for us.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Great. Thank you so much. Okay. So then tell our audience about your school district. Tell us what you're doing in Poway and how did you get it started? What has been your journey to get it where it is now?
Megan Gross:
So we are in Northeastern San Diego County and we have 39 schools about 35,000 students. So we're a big district. And about six years ago, our school board actually kind of initiated an assessment of how, how were our special education services being utilized. And so part of this kind of assessment and audit of our, our programming led to a report that indicated that we hadn't moved the needle on our student's ability to access the least restrictive environment. And so because of this report, our district convened a stakeholder group. So we had everybody, we had parents transportation special education staff, general education staff, administrators really starting to look at what does that mean? Right. And, and how do you shift opportunities for students with disabilities? And so as we were in those meetings, we started looking at a lot of the specialized segregated programs that we had created as a district and that we were really proud of because we really wanted to, to give our students the best and what we thought was the best at the time.
Megan Gross:
Right. and so we really started to look at these segregated programs for students with mild to moderate disabilities and really looking at how do we start increasing access to general education. And it was actually interestingly enough work, our high schools had already started doing on their own because they wanted students to earn high school diplomas. And so they realized these segregated classrooms at the high school level didn't lead to diplomas for their students. And so they had already started essentially kind of dissolving those programs, they're going rogue wow. So that they could better meet their students needs. And so we kind of looked at that and realized if that's what they were doing at the high school level. Then we could, we could do that pre-K to 12 and really start looking at aligning how we provide services and increasing opportunities for students.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nancy, was there anything you wanted to say about that?
Nancy Brundrett:
No, I would say as, as a member of those early on meetings, Megan hit that right on the head. Right. We had a lot of, of people. And then we were kind of got refocused. We had a new associate superintendent come in who really started moving, you know, moving the group into the direction of, okay, let's get some stuff done instead of just talking about it. And it really kind of took off. And that the amazing thing is you have these like-minded individuals who really truly believe that students, you know, come first and that we need to look at the whole student. And so I think that was really what was kind of at the foundation of the work and we got going on it. So
Diana Pastora Carson:
That's extraordinary. It's noteworthy that it was a top-down activity. It was a top-down process because so often there are teachers who would like to practice more inclusion, would like to be more inclusive in their school settings, but they don't have administrative support. So I think that it's wow, great. You're so, so fortunate to have that.
Megan Gross:
We are, and I think from the top, like the superintendent, the associate superintendents, but also our school board and for our school board to value that, that this is, this is what we wanna do for all of our students. And then I think taking that administrative support and one of the key things we did in the very beginning was our assistant superintendent said, and, and now we're gonna kind of do a pilot, right. And have some model schools. So that way we can do some learning and we can do learning with, with school sites and school teams who are willing to get in the mud. Right? And kind of really figure out how do we do this and how do we do it right. And, and what, what are challenges that we're gonna have to overcome to do systems change.
Megan Gross:
Right. And so then that did elicit more volunteers. And so you know, it, wasn't something that became top-down immediately, cuz I think sometimes those, those decisions are made and people don't have enough time to get ready. Right? And so we were able to I, I know for many of us the work doesn't move fast enough. And for others , the work probably moves too fast right. And so trying to find that sweet spot of how do we help teachers and teams and families take the next step mm-hmm . And so we went with a model schools project for the first two years. And then last year in spite of COVID we just kept going and, and did all elementary schools. And so this year we've added middle schools. So we've been able to take our learning from both a top-down and also like volunteer learners to, to make to start making some really profound change.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Do you think?...
Nancy Brundrett:
Also I think, oh, sorry. I think also Megan, we did have, we had pockets right. Of sites and of certain grade levels and teachers that were really doing some of this work. It just wasn't, it didn't have a label on it. Right. We didn't say what it was, but when we kind of got in there and saw, we really had some great examples of where it was already happening. So kind of taking that and, and bringing those folks along and saying how and where, you know, how could we expand this, I think was also really helpful. So I don't wanted to make it seem like no one was doing it. Because we did have some, some pockets where it was really working. But it wasn't, it was almost like quiet, right? Like, well we're doing this right. But it wasn't like it wasn't broadcast.
Nancy Brundrett:
So I think those were relationships that we had to you know, get into and, and sort of expound on so that we could make it more, as Megan said, systematic across our district. And, and we could see, we could take those examples and say, see, this is working here and this is how they're doing it. So how could you do something similar? We're also very, very conscientious about not making it a blueprint. Like you have to do this, right? Because we recognize that each site is at a different level and, and what's, you know, important to them and what, where they think they can go. So giving them sort of the autonomy to say what their next steps were and then tailoring that support so that it was very site specific. And also maybe it was grade levels or, you know, a certain content area. So that was in the beginning years, a lot of our work. And we're still, we're still doing that.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Now, did you have any guidance from any other models that we've seen work like the coalitions for inclusive education or Chime or there, I can't remember the name of the other. What's the other? Wish! Yeah. Wish Wish schools and Chime schools and coalitions for inclusive education. Did you, were you able to collaborate with any of those as well?
Megan Gross:
Well, so we our, our greatest I think ally has been the Supporting Inclusive Practices the SIP Project which is funded through the California department of education and is a joint project between El Dorado, El Dorado County Schools of Education and Riverside. And Dr. Kristin Brooks and Kevin Schaefer have been phenomenal. And so in the early days of this work they spent a lot of time on the phone with me kind of talking about this is, this is what other folks in your area are doing. And these are the, you know, have you been to chime, have you been to wish? And so actually Nancy and I were able to take before we launched our model schools we invited administrators. We invited our labor partners. So our, both our classified and certificated unions and teachers to come with us to visit Chime and to see what does their model look like. And I think one of the most if it always been on my bucket list as like an inclusive, special ed teacher to go to chime and when we went there, we had one of our middle school principals came and I just remember like halfway through our tour, like in the hallway, she paused and said, we can do this. Oh my goodness. I like, it was if like the vail had been lifted and you're like, oh, like, she's like some of my teachers already do these things. Oh my gosh,
Diana Pastora Carson:
I have goosebumps. Yes.
Megan Gross:
Yeah. Because I think there's this kind of mythical unicorn about inclusive education. And, and when we take away, like that's not attainable for everybody to be a unicorn. Right. And so when we take that away and you realize, oh, I, I need to just create access points to curriculum. Right. We need to work on social-emotional learning. We need to work on, on behavior and supports. And how do we do this in a classroom? Those are all things I do anyways, as a teacher time
Diana Pastora Carson:
All the time. All the frickin' time!
Megan Gross:
And, and I think that gave us the confidence that like, we can keep going, because it's not this magical thing that can only happen at a charter school. right. And and then subsequently we had a chance to go to Wish and see their model. Cause we really wanted to see more secondary and wish does have a secondary model there in Los Angeles. So we've been really grateful for people who open up their schools and ideas. And working here in San Diego County, you know, I was able to partner with folks in other districts too, and just even like meet for a coffee and say, how do you do this? What does this look like? And I mean, that, that meant everything in the beginning because when, when you wanna make such a huge systems change, people look at you as if like you've lost your mind a little bit. And when you can say, pssssstt...do you know what they're doing up the road in that school district? Mm-Hmm Pssssstt...Do you know what they're doing over here? Do you know, they got an award for that? Like it starts to like people start doing their own kind of Googling research and go, oh, oh, this isn't like some like wild idea that you made up. It's like a thing , mm-hmm, , it's like, I dunno, federal law. Yeah. That we're talking about.
Diana Pastora Carson:
It's about civil rights. Right?
Nancy Brundrett:
Exactly. Exactly.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow, this is awesome. So how did you each individually decide that this is what you wanted to do, that you wanted to work towards more inclusion in your schools? Why are you passionate? Why, what is your, why?
Nancy Brundrett:
Well, I can start that. I, you know, I worked in an, an SDC classroom for many, many, many years. And I loved what I did and we did include students right. With what we would call specials, you know, kind of, they were visitors in those classrooms. And that seemed okay. Like the site seemed okay with that. You know, we, we didn't do a ton, but we, we did some, and one of my very last years before I joined this work the principal came to me and said, you know, we have this student who's in general education and they really need someone with them. The teacher's really struggling with mostly behaviors, but also some, some needs academically, would you be willing to go over and support this student instead of working in your regular classroom? And I said, absolutely. I was, you know, the, the most senior staff person there, I had been there quite a while.
Nancy Brundrett:
And I was obviously honored that she asked me to do this, right? This was an undertaking. So I thought, sure I can do this. And then when I went into that space, the more I was in there and pretty quickly I thought, oh, well, I know this student would be amazing. They could totally do this work or right? This student would be, would be awesome. You know, joining them for, for art or for the music, whatever it may be. So I, it kind of was really like an aha moment for me of being in a general education space, six and a half hours a day that other students, students that I had worked with in the past and in the recent past, even, why aren't, why aren't they in here? It was also an aha moment for me because I had, it was a first grade classroom at the time I had other students saying to me, what are you doing in here?
Nancy Brundrett:
Why are you with him? Right? What, right? So it changed my practice in the sense of I really tried to become a member of that community and help all students, the teacher, and feel like I was, you know, I knew why I was there, primarily what I was looking for, but I had like, you know, kind of one eye over here, but I was really purposely not sticking with that student every single second that I was in there. So for me that was kind of my aha thing. Like we can do better. We can do this better. As Megan shared, we had long been known for wonderful sort of siloed classrooms and student success. And we did have a lot of that. But then when we looked at the other pieces, more looking at like the whole child, we were, we were, were kind of missing out.
Nancy Brundrett:
So for me, that's, that's when it started. I also was and continued to be involved with our union as a mentor for new employees. So that afforded me the opportunity to have some release time, to go help brand new employees in their spaces, which again, you get outta your one bubble, your one site in your one classroom and you kind of go see other things. And for me, it was an opportunity to see things that were working and see things that were like, well, wait, why isn't this happening here? This should be happening here. So it was kind of the, the culmination of all of those things on an elementary campus, which is where I was mostly, you know, focused, the idea of the students being visitors and not being members of the classroom. So little changes that we made like that were very, very meaningful, but that was sort of my why of like more of a, why not? Why, why aren't we doing this?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, great. That's a great question that will catapult a lot of people into inclusive practices if they really sit and reflect right. Really observe and reflect. And Megan, how about you?
Megan Gross:
Yeah, I think for me I, I had no concept as a public school student in California that there were students with, you know, different disabilities on our campuses and going into college and doing respite work and working with families and, you know, getting to meet families who had had kids with autism and cerebral palsy and down syndrome and seeing these beautiful lives that they had created that had never, that, that I had never seen before. Right. Like it wasn't a part of my family and my family dynamics. And there was something about that world that was very appealing to me. And so I went to go work in a residential group home for 12 adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And as a, you know, as a 21 year old and a 22 year old helping take adults who are 40 years old to their doctor's appointments or to the bank or to grocery shopping.
Megan Gross:
And I started to notice that people asked me the questions and didn't ask the, the folks I was supporting and that really bothered me. And I, and the more time I spent at the group home, right, you, you would sit and have dinner together and it, you know, people would be talking about the drama in relationships and who kissed who. And and I was like, oh, I'm 22. Like I can relate to this. you know, where someone else would come home from work and be like, oh my gosh, this job is awful. Like, blah, blah, blah. And, and I just realized like, oh, we all have this really human experience. And the 12 adults that, that I got a chance to be a part of their lives for, you know, three or four years. They were the original kids who received a public education.
Megan Gross:
And that public education was in a segregated school setting. And so, you know, they were pioneers in many ways and their families were too and did the best that they could in that moment in time. But I, I realized one day as I was supporting one of the gentlemen in the house who had dementia he could still remember how to write his name in cursive. And one night we, we were sitting there after he had come home from, from his day program and he was writing his first and last name over and over again. And he couldn't remember me. He didn't remember that I just helped him take a shower, right? Like none of that stuff, but he looked at me and he said, Mrs. Miller taught me how to write my name in cursive. This is very important.
Megan Gross:
And she taught me, you know, in fourth grade to do this and I thought, oh, oh, I need to be a teacher. Right? If it matters this much. And and so, and I just think now, like I never, I, I didn't have a concept for what inclusive education was at that moment in my life as a 20-something person. But now, like, you know, my, in my 15th year, like every year there becomes another whyYou know, and I had a student a few years ago with autism who spoke limit, like spoken very fragmented, limited sentences. And he was included, we worked really hard to get out of our special day class. And we took science classes and art and history classes. And he really liked history because his brother took AP history courses at another high school in town.
Megan Gross:
And I will never like, forget, like, and I have this picture of him do taking high school civics, which all seniors take in California. And he was registering to vote. Wow. and, and had he not been a part of that class where it was a class assignment, right. He and, and he was like, I need to do this, give me this information. like, where do I hit send? And when I met, reached out to his dad, his dad said, wait, what? It hadn't occurred to me. Right. Like he you're right. He's 18. Oh my gosh. And so it's those little things, right that
Diana Pastora Carson:
That are huge,
Megan Gross:
That are huge, yeah. Like this is how you participate in your democracy, like your voice matters and exactly. Yeah. And so those are things that just every single little time they happen.
Megan Gross:
It's the kind of thing that makes it really hard to be a teacher on special assignment, because , I wanna go back and do that again. Right. and instead Nancy and I are in these release roles where we're, we're supporting folks and doing it for a lot more students, which is great. But it's those moments of, oh, like that whole struggle was worth it. Right? Mm-hmm and figuring out how does this student learn and, and how do we, how do we create access to these challenging concepts, especially as you get older? So, so that's my why. And that's, you know, like when we get kind of stuck in our work, it's thinking back to a student who used his, his AAC on his iPad when he was left, when he was left with peers and had never used it before to like initiate communication. And I stepped out of the room to help another student. And all of a sudden I came back in and the entire class is laughing because he has just hit candy, candy, candy, candy on his iPad because girls in the front row were sneaking Skittles. And he was like, I'm gonna have some too. Thank you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, wow.
Megan Gross:
Like, you know, it's those things. So
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah
Megan Gross:
They're my why
Diana Pastora Carson:
Those are beautiful whys. Those are beautiful reasons why. You know, it seems like bringing back what you were talking about, about your experiences in the group home. It really speaks to me so much because of my relationship with Joaquin, my brother, and as an educator, my, why has always been grounded in the knowledge of what's going to happen in the future for these students, mm-hmm, , what's going to, what will there be access to and what will there not be access to? And so for Joaquin, if he had had access to inclusion, he would've had more access to friendships and relationships and, you know, academics of course, and a possibility of having a job when he got older and having more reliable communication, if we had focused on that. But also, you know, those kids in the classroom where your student was, was saying candy, candy, candy.
Diana Pastora Carson:
You know, those students are going to grow up and have a completely different approach when they become the law enforcement officers. When they become the healthcare workers, when they become the grocery store managers, when they become the educators, whatever, you know, business owners, they're gonna be the people who are gonna be the neighbors to, the friends of, the family of, the employers of, the people who have been included all their life and expect, you know, who have, have a great sense of self-worth and sense of belonging and, and feel that they're valued because people do value them because we didn't push them away. Now in the future, the other students, the non-disabled students are going to continue that valuing. They're gonna have learned from that inclusion that we modeled for them. So thank you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
All right. So what have been some of your success stories? Other than that, I love that story of the spontaneous communication and wanting candy, of course, who wouldn't. What are some other success stories, both with students who are disabled students or are nondisabled and with employees, some of the educators that you work with.
Nancy Brundrett:
So as Megan chair, we had in the beginning of this work, we had model schools. So we only had three model schools to begin with. And I focused mostly my attention and, and efforts at the elementary level. So with our first model school, some of the amazing things that we saw that were just really small shifts looking at the whole child I mentioned earlier about being a visitor in the classroom. So all students started, right? All students are general education students first. So they were all rostered in a general education class. All students started their day and ended their day in that general education space. So there was no longer this idea of, oh, here comes, you know, Johnny midway through the day, or Johnny comes in 15 minutes after school starts and does circle time with us.
Nancy Brundrett:
But then we never see him again kind of thing. So that was very, very powerful. And for parents that meant the world, right? When you walked by the classrooms, they all had 30 ish backpacks. You didn't have this one classroom or two classrooms or three classrooms that only had five or six or seven or eight backpacks. And that may sound really insignificant, but it was very significant. They started and ended their day depending, and they may spend, have spent different amounts of time in there for different subjects, but they still were no longer visitors. We had parents telling us stories of that and how powerful that was. We also noticed that at one of the first schools that students that may have previously been in a non severely handicapped class tended to only sit with their classroom peers, right. That was their comfort zone.
Nancy Brundrett:
They hadn't been exposed to their nondisabled grade level peers. So again, that took a little bit in the beginning to like encourage them to kind of all, you know, they didn't need to sit at the table they had sat up for maybe the last two or three years. They would be with their, with their general education peers. That was powerful. For me, one of the things that always always was, was sort of an issue for me being on an elementary campus was, you know, when the yearbook would come out and you'd have, you know, three fifth grade classes, and then you'd have this class that was like, Miss Smith's class 3, 4, 5, and there were seven kids in it, right. Just like the visual of, you know, you're a 10, 11 year old going through a yearbook and like, wait, why did this class only have, oh, it's those kind, that's those kids, right?
Nancy Brundrett:
Mm-Hmm shifts made where that didn't happen. So their picture was in with their general education class that they spent some of their time in, again, might sound really insignificant, but really powerful. So those were some of the successes that we, we saw. Of course we saw amazing growth in, in a lot of our students that were now exposed to their grade level curriculum and, and the rigor that, that brings with it. Ubut socially and emotionally, right, these kids walked a little taller. They, they felt,more a part of their community and their school. And I think the interesting thing is too, is that it's for all students, the students that wouldn't have wouldn't have been with these kiddos, had we not encourage them to be in, in these general education space is more, they flourished, right? The support, the way we give the support and, and normalized extra adults worked for all students.
Nancy Brundrett:
It made all students have a better sense of belonging, but to your point earlier, like it, it normalized that somebody might need help with this. And someone might use an AAC device and somebody, you know, might be using a wheelchair and that's normal. That's okay. Right. Everyone gets what they need. We don't all get the same thing, but everyone kind of gets what they need. So for me, a lot of it, of course, academics are important, but the biggest takeaways were ha have been like the whole child and the social opportunities for them. And then realizing that, you know, there are, if we take away these barriers, there's no telling where these, these kiddos can, you know, achieve and what they'll rise to. And, you know, having been at this a long time, I'll see students who are now in high school.
Nancy Brundrett:
And even beyond that, it's, you know, they may have been in a a classroom at an SDC classroom once upon a time. And they're amazing, right. It cuz our high schools did have always done a, a pretty good job of this. Right? So once they get to high school, it was like, oh, they had these opportunities. Could they have more? Absolutely. But seeing them and, and you know, not trying to pigeonhole them when they are 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, that they're always going to need. This type of class is, is really powerful when you see that. It's amazing. So that for me is some of our successes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you, Nancy. You know, I noticed before you share some successes, Megan, I noticed that you used a term that I haven't heard in a while. And that's the NSH, non severely handicapped mm-hmm Is that, so I know that not all districts use that, but we've been around a long time. So I knew exactly what you were talking about. Is that something your district also still uses in terms of categories of student disabilities, severely handicapped, SH and non-SH I'm just curious.
Nancy Brundrett:
So yeah, so that was a part of
Megan Gross:
This conversation of, oh my goodness. This is like antiquated language. Right. And it's offensive. So this like also highlights, what are we doing here? right. So we have, we have one remaining class of that in preschool. And so we're, we're working really hard just to, not our team, but there's other teams that are working in the preschool space to, to really look at how do we make that more inclusive? Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
And how do we frame the language? Yeah,
Megan Gross:
Yeah. Right, right.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I got it. That's what my special education credentials are in, by the way . They're stuck with me. So my apologies to anybody listening, their purpose is not to be offensive, but it's just the language that we still use. And we are, we are living in antiquated with antiquated systems still. Mm-Hmm , even though we have great people who are doing amazing work to shift the conversations and the actions related to inclusive education. So Megan, tell us, what are some of your success stories, things that stand out for you?
Megan Gross:
I think one of the things that stands out the most for me is not, not necessarily a student, we have, we have lots of great student stories and you know, students who got to walk in the hallways at passing periods for the first time as like a celebration who called that out and said, oh, I didn't know, this school was so crowded. But, but I've also noticed this shift with, with adults and adults feeling like they belong on campus. And you know, as a special education teacher, that's a very like lonely job sometimes. Like sometimes you're the only one on a campus. Right. Or maybe there's two. And so one of the things that we noticed was was this work, you ha it's a team sport. Like you have to have like a team to do this work. And so that's part of the challenge of this work is that we have to, we have to open our doors and say, come in and, you know, see the mess in all that it is.
Megan Gross:
It's not always perfect. And I think teachers often hold themselves to this standard of perfection because they want what's best for, for all the kids in their classroom. But, but being able to watch people co-teach together to be able to sit in grade level meetings and, and have people collaborating sometimes for the first time together and sharing, oh, you know, what, if we utilized these resources in order to make this lesson accessible for all the kids and then the teachers come back and say, oh my gosh. And did you see how max did it and how, you know, Samantha did it? Oh my gosh. And they weren't even on our radar. Right. They, they were students who, who were, you know, outliers who, who didn't fit into any of the, the categories we used in education. And so I think we have so much room to grow still in that area. But I think having been somebody who's been the only person at a site doing the work right. To see other people doing the work and, and to be able to walk away from, from a campus and have other teachers send text messages or pictures or call and say, oh my gosh, guess what happened?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Megan Gross:
That's sustainable. Right? Like that's people owning the work. And and that gives me great hope. And so I feel like it's not, it's not like end of story. Like the book has ended. Right. But it's like, what can it, what can keep us going? And and how do we, how do we elevate those voices? So you know, the people, like you mentioned earlier, Diana, who are often doing this quietly right. And and so how do we start saying, you know what, there's actually 12 of you on this campus, who do this work really phenomenally and how, how do you share, and, and can you share, you know, teach us a strategy that works for you in your class and, and making it more grassroots in that regard. That's a success to me. Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Beautiful. I love it. I love it. So what do you see are some of the key components that the Poway school district uses, or what are the key components of Poway success with an inclusive model of educating students that make it successful and that make it sustainable?
Nancy Brundrett:
Well, I think what Megan just mentioned, like the co-teaching the, the getting in there and planning together and the collaboration. So in our district, we, it's sort of titled co-teaching if you have two teachers in a space, which could be a general education teacher and a special education teacher, and then collaboration, if it's a general education teacher and an instructional assistant. So as we touched on a little bit, we, we looked at really how we utilize all staff when it comes to supporting students in the, in the best you know, in the best way for inclusion and for them to have the most opportunities. So to me, that's kind of been something a little different because the, the standard model, when you're looking at like your support staff is the teacher gives the directions, or, you know, hands you the work.
Nancy Brundrett:
And then the instructional assistant may go into this space and work with that student. And it may be in a general education space, but then there was not a lot of time or the, the need didn't seem so great to be able to like debrief or to talk about it, to figure out what works. So I think we've, we've done work with elevating, like the instructional assistant voice, which has been really, really helpful in Poway. Because we knew this team knew, and many people knew that we, it was sort of an untapped resource and that many of them had, you know, these amazing ideas and, and really, really their hearts were in the right place. But they just, because of the way we were structured, like, oh, I just do what the teacher tells me to do, right. There wasn't much opportunity for them to have a voice or to try something different. So really making time for those conversations and, and bringing them along that to me has been one of the biggest pieces that we've seen for our success.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, absolutely. You give the support staff buy-in and empowerment to be able to do their job well, and to meet the needs of the students in an inclusive environment. So freeing and, and empowering for everybody. How about you, Megan?
Megan Gross:
I think one of the other aspects that our, our district invested in was looking at caseloads of special education teachers. And so in California, right in ed code credentialed credentialed ed specialists can have up to 28 if they're a resource specialist and often if you are a resource specialist in California, you have 28 students. mm-hmm . And so we really looked at if we really wanted to make collaboration a possibility, and co-teaching a possibility we couldn't ask people to case manage 28 students on August 25th every year. And so our district has invested in, in reducing those caseload sizes. Is it perfect? No. but I, I would say many of our, many of our secondary teachers and elementary school teachers now are around 20 students. And that probably doesn't seem like a lot to numbers folks, but that eight kids is a lot and eight families is a lot.
Megan Gross:
And especially in secondary, when kids have six classrooms and six teachers, that's 48, you know, classes that you're like negotiating for, for those students. And so I think that has been a big support and has been, I have really appreciated that investment as a special education teacher because they could say, well, the law says this. So so sad, too bad. And, and instead that there's an investment there. And I think our team in general so there are five of us when four years ago when this work started, it was just myself and Nancy. So myself as a teacher on special assignment and Nancy as a classified on special assignment and we've been able to add support to our team. So we now have three classified on special assignments. And then we just added a new TOSA, there's two TOSAs, and so
Diana Pastora Carson:
Teacher on special assignment?
Megan Gross:
Yes. and so one of the things that we're able to do is, is, and, and you know, we still could clone ourselves I'm sure, and be a lot more effective but we're able to actually be on campuses. And I think one of the, one of the amazing things that Nancy, Christina and Alex do is that they, they do embedded coaching. So where our we've tried really hard to not just do a one and done professional learning model because we've done this work and we know it's challenging and things pop up, but you don't think are gonna pop up. And so to be alongside people in their own classrooms during a lesson and say, have you tried using post-it note and just writing, you know, three check boxes and then the student can go have a break or, oh, did you know that, that if we click this button here, it'll do speech to text, right? Just the little things that you wouldn't get in an all staff professional learning. So I, I think that has helped us
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. That on the spot coaching is so important. And what a, what a valuable feeling of support, you know, I've known teachers who didn't feel supported when people came into quote-unquote observe as opposed to, to be there, to be their cheerleader, to be their support, not only for the teacher, but for the student. And just two heads are better than one, three heads are better than 1. 4, 5, you know, we it's about collaboration. And I love that you guys use a an open and collaborative model.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So what are some of the barriers that you've encountered as you've been doing this work in terms of administration or teacher concerns or fears or complaints or family concerns? And then of course, student support needs?
Nancy Brundrett:
Change is hard. yeah. Right. Change is hard for, for everybody. So I think that in the beginning, right, we, we had these really amazing robust SDC classrooms. And then we were like, but wait a minute, we we're gonna do this. So I think for, for me, at least being on sites whether it was the administrator, the teachers, the support staff, you know, everyone was like, but what, but why, like, why, why are we doing this? I think the barrier was just change, right? People don't like change. And so I think for me personally, that that really shaped how my approaches on campuses, right. I am very much a relationship person and a rapport person, and I think it's really important to be visible and to be on those sites. And, and that's challenging when you have a lot of sites and there's one of you.
Nancy Brundrett:
Right. but I think that has been super helpful in sort of minimizing the fear about change because when they see you and they know that you're there, and a lot of observation in the beginning, right. Don't go in you know, like a bowling ball and knock everything down. You, you look and you observe, and sometimes you go home and you call your coworker and say, I can't believe this is what's happening there. Right. And then the next day, oftentimes I would say, oh, I got that wrong. This is really right. This is so, so that judgment piece. But I do think that change was the hard part. And for us, I think being there, being observant and then that embedded coaching, like Megan said, like being right next to someone and saying, you know, Hey, do you mind if I take this task and you can kind of see what I do, you know? And, and again, people are different. You have to kind of take the temperature where they are and the space and everything else. And so I think trial and error, but that would be the one thing that I would say in the beginning can be challenging. And it's just really about how we approach it. Yeah.
Megan Gross:
I also think it, isn't just about you know, you think about the students and, and okay. Like, oh, which classrooms are they gonna be in? And, and do we have transportation routes worked out and all of these things, but our coworker likes to say, right? Like, it's like, we're peeling onion, like layers of the onion, because it's not just about the inclusion. It's about like, when we start to, to include kids, we start to like encounter the barriers of an education system that was built for industrialization. Right. And, and so all of a sudden you realize, oh, it, it's not just about this one student in this one classroom, right. It's about the fact that all of these special education teachers didn't get a chance to do X, Y, and Z training with their general education teacher colleagues. It's about the fact that the instructional assistants are left off the staff list at a school site.
Megan Gross:
And there are things that like were never done with mal intent. But it's relearning how to communicate. It's you know, rethinking about how resources are, are allocated and who needs what curriculum and who needs what fidgets and sensory items in their classrooms. And so honestly, sometimes like including the student in the classroom is like the easiest part and it's all the other layers and all the other aspects of, of a system that really is still siloed. Mm-Hmm . And, and so for us learning how to navigate the, the silos and start building bridges ha I think has been really essential because it does get really hard. Yeah. Sometimes. and you hit roadblocks of, well, you know, so, and so does that work and you're not in, so, and so's team , it's like, well, but, but I need so and so to help me and, and learning just how to navigate that system.
Megan Gross:
And you know, and I think also for, for educators and for our administrators we aren't naive to the fact that, like, these have been the hardest two and a half years of our lives. And and I think when change is hard in good times and so let alone being in the midst of a pandemic. And, and I think a, a lot of change is rooted in fear of, of not knowing how to do something. And so trying, trying to figure out, like, what is at the root of that fear? Like, what is the skill, what is the resource? What, what is the just cheerleader support? You need a lot of our, our, our staff like beat themselves up and we go in and we're like, this was amazing. What are you talking about? Like,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Megan Gross:
And they're just like whole body, like, like drops all of a sudden, they say, really, I just, I didn't think I was doing it right.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oooohhh...
Megan Gross:
Right. Like they they're so much pressure. And, and so I think that becomes a barrier and unless folks are willing to be vulnerable and say, I dunno how to do this. Will you help me? Or I think I didn't do this right. Or holy smokes, the kid is knocking dust over in my classroom. What am I supposed to do? Right. Uand, and so we're asking a lot of people in a,in a difficult time. And,so trying to also be mindful of that and,to give ourselves and each other, the grace,that we would want to be given to us during these times,I think,is important to keep in mind,because this work isn't perfect, Nancy and I aren't perfect. Uand I am sure that there are folks who would be like, ah, they weren't that helpful at my site. ,right. But,we're, we're humans and we all are on this like journey together. And,I have this sweet,picture frame that I'm looking at right now from one of my first student teachers,that just says, do the best that you can. Right. And we do the best that we can in this moment and we keep getting better. Uand,not everybody wants to hear that when you wanna just like, fix a problem. Uand so sometimes,that makes the work challenging. U
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. And on that note, you know, the thing is we know that inclusion is better and I think it was Maya Angelou who said, when, you know, better, then you can do better. And we're doing better in the best way that we can. And so I think, you know, when you're talking about those structures, those silos, you know, and how we have to build these bridges from silo to silo. And I think you both, and I know that at some point, the end goal is to just tear down the silos and not need the bridges and create new systems and new structures that actually do support students in inclusive settings, but also include all staff, all the educators. It won't be so hard once we, once we hit the ground running and you guys are hitting the ground running. And I thank you for the work that you do. And it's really been an honor to have you here on the podcast.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. If this was helpful to you, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me, Diana, on Instagram @dianapastoracarson and on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Or you can go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. My books include Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities, as well as my children's book, Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights. They can both be found on Amazon. For your free Beyond Awareness resource called the "5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness," simply go to www.GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys. This podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again for joining me. Be well, be a lifelong learner, and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
