Diana Pastora Carson:
Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me today. Before we get started with our amazing guest, I wanna tell you about a brand new disability awareness educators guide that I am so excited to announce. It's published through National Professional Resources Inc. And it's a trifold laminated Beyond Disability Awareness: An Educators Guide that really takes everything that you will find in my books and on the podcast, and just gives you...It's kind of like Cliff's Notes of disability awareness in a way that's respectful and founded in research and a social justice lens. So if you're interested in checking it out, you can go to DianaPastoraCarson.com/store, and you'll find a link there. Now, let's get started.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters podcast. Here you will find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, disability studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity, and inclusion, and how to frame disability awareness in the context of educating K through 12 communities. This podcast serves educators, parents and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way, moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's go beyond awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. Today, I'm so excited to have one of my heroines or heroes, I'm not sure which is the best term to use, but somebody who I just appreciate and admire so much in the world.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I'm going to read her bio from the book jacket of Being Heumann: An Unrepentant Memoir of a Disability Rights Activist. Judith Heumann is an internationally-recognized leader in the Disability Rights Independent Living Movement. Her work with a wide range of activist organizations, including the Berkeley Center for Independent Living, and the American Association of People with Disabilities, non-governmental organizations, and governments since the 1970s, has contributed greatly to the development of human rights legislation and policy benefiting disabled people. She has advocated for disability rights at home and abroad, serving in the Clinton and Obama administrations, and as the World Bank's first advisor on disability and development. She lives in Washington, DC. Judy also is, as mentioned, the author of Being Heumann, an Unrepentant Memoir of a Disability Rights Activist, which I have just read for the fourth time because I love this book so much.
Judy Heumann:
Oh, thank you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
She also is the author of a juvenile version of the book called Rolling Warrior. I love this title, Rolling Warrior, the Incredible, Sometimes Awkward True Story, of a Rebel Girl On Wheels who Helped Spark a Revolution. Another great book, which I've only read once.
Judy Heumann:
Ali Stroker has done the audio for both of the books. And I'd also like to say, Diana, so I wrote this book with a woman named Kristen Joiner. We spent an immense amount of time together, some in person, significantly on the phone and on Zoom because over the course of the years that we worked on it, she lived in San Francisco, traveled to DC for a job, left that job, went back to San Francisco, and then moved to New Zealand. So a lot of the work that we did was she in New Zealand and me in Washington, DC. Pretty interesting.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Wow. A labor of love and quite a process.
Judy Heumann:
Yes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay, thank you. So, yes, with Kristen Joiner. And Judy is also the podcast host of the Heumann Perspective, which is one of my favorite podcasts. And she is also, she also has a starring role in the Netflix documentary film Crip Camp. Welcome Judy, and thank you. Thank you again for being here.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So I'm gonna start with this question. In your book, Being Heumann, you mentioned that your story and fight is that of many, not just yourself. To me, there's no denying that your leadership drive and tenacity played an essential role in the success of the disability rights movement. You have your memoir, you're featured as a major subject in the film Crip Camp. You're a major part of many national and international governmental organizations and committees. You're behind all of the major disability rights laws. You are a big frickin' deal. And as your husband, Jorge, says, you are "Chingona." Right? And yet, anytime I've heard you speak, you always acknowledge so many others. And I know that it's very important to you, and it's not just for the sake of humility. I know that there's an important reason, and I think that's important for my listeners to understand why you acknowledge so many others. Why is that important?
Judy Heumann:
Well, because from my perspective, any major efforts involve more than one person. And it's important for people, and I don't get to mention everyone's names, but it's important for both the people who have been doing the work to be acknowledged for their work. And it's important for the larger community to understand that no one person achieves anything of huge significance by themselves. And I feel that respecting other people and acknowledging their efforts is always something that is a necessity for me because I know what I know and I know what I can do, and I know what I don't know, and I know what I can't do alone.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I think that's encouraging to people who do feel sometimes when they're fighting for inclusion in schools, you know, to know that they don't have to do it all alone.
Judy Heumann:
Well, in many cases, depending on the issue. So significantly, my mother, because my dad worked so many hours, was really needing to find things out herself. But this was in the 1950s when there really weren't other organizations that were doing a lot of work on issues around inclusion of disabled children in school. And at that point, I think what's interesting to know is there were groups like United Cerebral Palsy who were working on getting kids with cerebral palsy into school. And while I don't know all the historical facts, like in New York, Anna, I've been learning recently in California, United Cerebral Palsy really worked like in New York City on getting health conservation classes, albeit segregated, getting kids into school. And but it was only in the beginning covering kids who had cerebral palsy. So you could see early on that the need to be working cross-disability was even essential in getting educational systems to begin to look at the broad swath of children who at that time were not even in school.
Judy Heumann:
And then as my mother met other mothers, then they began to work together because I think it was very difficult for them to be doing things by themselves. I think, you know, as a disabled person, certainly in the beginning when I was alone, in as much as I didn't know other disabled people that were experiencing things that I was experiencing, even though I was young, you know, 8, 9, 10 years old, when I was nine and I finally started meeting other disabled children and gradually becoming friends, that's when conversations began of looking at why were we not in regular schools, like beginning to question things. And so beginning not to be alone. You know, beginning not to think that I was the problem, but beginning to recognize slowly that we weren't the problem. It was the system that was failing to view us as having the same right to education as kids who were defined as non-disabled.
Judy Heumann:
So I think really, for parents meeting other parents who again, are validating what a parent may be wanting, like a child in a regular classroom with appropriate supports where they're being told they can't do that, or where they're being asked to sign documents acknowledging that the kids are not gonna get a regular school diploma even though the child is four or five or six years old, and no such documents should be given to a parent to sign. All those types of things, getting emotional support, and in many cases beyond emotional support, you know, possibly having another advocate go with you to an IEP meeting or a different type of a discussion where you're really trying to lay out what you believe your child needs and to really, in many cases, feel like you're defending your position when you're involved with various meetings with multiple people, who in many cases are not necessarily supporting your position of the child being included.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So when educators talk about disability awareness, this is where one of the areas where I've focused a lot of my work is helping to educate educators and parents about what is appropriate and productive to discuss when you wanna do some disability awareness. You know, we've historically done a lot of inspiration porn and a lot of simulation activities and have not focused on societal barriers, have not focused on our lack of understanding of why inclusion is important. We haven't focused on disability rights and what discrimination can do to people. And so I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on what we should be focusing on, if we are gonna be focusing on disability awareness? I mean, should we even be focusing on disability awareness?
Judy Heumann:
Yeah. So I'm not a big fan of the term disability awareness, but...So I think, you know, what you just asked is very important, and there isn't one answer because I believe that we want overall for people to understand that children with disabilities have a right to an education, have a right to a good education, have a right to an education which is comparable to their non-disabled peers. And that education needs to be looked at in a number of different ways. One is the academics, the ability to learn to read, to write, to do history, social studies, math, science, English, whatever it may be. And for most students with accommodations, they will be able to learn at the same level as others. For those students who for whatever reason, uh, really are unable to perform in the typical way, then alternative assessments are something which are required by law.
Judy Heumann:
I think that one of the major failings is that schools are not yet, universities, are not yet teaching teachers in general who are gonna be regular ed teachers or special ed teachers. They're not really learning sufficiently about how to accommodate curricula. And if you can't accommodate curricula, then it's gonna make it more difficult both for the student and subsequently for the regular teacher or the other students, because you're needing to effectively develop an approach which ultimately will benefit not just the disabled student, but other students. But there needs to be a discourse that's going on where people can actually be looking at different methods that work with different students. And that's not happening. And we still have teachers that are graduating with very little knowledge, maybe one course, maybe no courses. And you know, if we're just talking about disability history, disability awareness, and I'm really not minimizing its importance, but if you are training to be a teacher, your job is to teach.
Judy Heumann:
And if you're not being given the effective tools to be able to be a good teacher, not only are you failing the students, but it's also very painful for the teacher who wants to be doing a better job not to have been given the tools that they need. And, you know, to be able to look at kinds of supports, the kinds of technology, various things that can effectively help students learn. I believe it's also really requiring repetition that working with students who've been identified as having disabilities and knowing different educational approaches, also does benefit all students who are not gonna typically be learning like whatever that typical student is supposed to be.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right. I got goosebumps. That was so well-said. Thank you very much, Judy. Going back to terminology, you know, you said you didn't really weren't a big fan of the term disability awareness. Same here. Um, I've also heard you talk about the term special needs as a counterproductive way to refer to people with disabilities. Yet many of us in education and in families still champion or use that term, and some unknowingly. So I just why should we avoid the term special needs?
Judy Heumann:
You know, special in some circles means something positive, right? It's a special day, we're gonna go and do something, we have a special day. I have surprises for you, I have a special present for you because you've been really good, I have special whatever. But in the area of education, there are a number of issues. One, many people would agree that special in the case of education of disabled children does not mean better, does not mean more. You know, theoretically, it means that you have teachers who are more trained, better trained, to be able to work with students who have certain types of disabilities. But then when those teachers are only in segregated classes, not significantly working with the students in helping them be appropriately included in regular classes, it's marginalizing disabled students. And so, special, as we were originally discussing it, turns into something where, oh, those kids over there, and those kids are not here because those kids are x, y, z.
Judy Heumann:
They don't eat lunch with us, they don't do gym with us. Uh, they may not even be in, uh, classes like music and arts together with us. If we decide, or if a teacher decides that I, as a non-disabled student am a good kid, maybe I can go over and help them once in a while. For me, when I was in elementary school, it meant that children, as we called them, "kids upstairs," the kids upstairs, there were selected group of those kids who came down on Fridays and helped push our wheelchairs to the auditorium. They, they were kids who were selected because they were good, and to come down and push the kids in the special classes. But there really wasn't awareness even created because the interactions were so limited. I mean, the fact that, you know, the lunchroom and the gym were the same room, and it was literally down the hall from our classes, and we never ate lunch with the kids and we never did gym with the kids.
Judy Heumann:
It's like there were no steps. There were no barriers. Question is why. So, I believe that we need to call education, education, um, and the word special education is just one whose time has been outlived and we need to do something different, which looks at education. We can talk about just like teacher's major in bilingual education or chemistry or, mathematics, whatever, you know, teachers who have specialties in being able to work with students who have certain types of disabilities. But in other cases, you know, you think about a reading teacher and that reading teacher really needs to know effective ways of helping children learn to read even those who are having difficulty and may have learning disabilities or dyslexia or whatever. So it's a need to revamp the terminology. But most importantly, it's really to be able to be assured that students are getting appropriate assessments, that students are being placed in the least restrictive environment with appropriate supports, including teachers, both general ed teachers and teachers who have specialized in certain areas of education with disabled children, being able to work in a meaningful way with the student who has disability.
Diana Pastora Carson:
And the same is true for the term special needs. You know, what is the effect of using special needs? I know in the book you talk about "special" being something extra or as if somebody's doing us a favor to give us accommodations or give us access.
Judy Heumann:
I mean, needs are individual whether you have a disability or not. And so, you know, a left-handed person needs, ideally needs, their fork or their spoon or a scissor, whatever, I'm lefty. We do things differently than right-handed people. So we may accommodate ourselves having to use most things that are for right-handed persons. But ideally, it would be valuable to be able to have, you know, appliances that could be utilized by left-handed people or universally designed so that left and right-handed people could use it. I think the term special needs is really looking at disabled people. It's not looking at special needs for an entire population. I think the word special, it's just the wrong word. You're really trying to identify what the needs are and get rid of the word special when it's around disability, because it's just detracting from what it is that we're ultimately trying to achieve.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hmm. Yes. Yes. Thank you.
Judy Heumann:
Any teacher knows that their students learn differently, whether it's a class of disabled or non-disabled or a class of disabled and non-disabled children. And it may have to do with, you know, a variety of things. Someone wants to sit on the left side of the room, someone wants to sit in the right side of the room, someone does better in the back of the room, someone does better in the front of the room, you know, different colors, kids like, different print sizes. All these things that can be supporting the learning needs, the socialization needs in this case of children and adults for that matter.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Yeah. And before anybody jumps to judgment about you not being a classroom teacher or not having experience, I also failed to mention that Judy was a teacher in the public school system for several years in New York.
Judy Heumann:
Three years mm-hmm.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. After having to fight in order to get approved for that credential, for that teaching license based on...
Judy Heumann:
We sued the board of Ed Yeah. And got my license that way.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, because you were discriminated against, based on your disability.
Judy Heumann:
Because I couldn't walk.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right, right. , Oh, everybody needs to read this book, I tell you.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Bell rings to signal ad: Hey there, my friend. Just a quick word with you about some resources that are available. First of all, if you're an educator or a parent looking at disability awareness or diversity, equity, and inclusion work in your school or community, please, please, please make sure to get my free resource: The 5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness. You wanna ensure that you focus on the right topics and do it in the most respectful and research-based way. So go to GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys to get this resource today. And even if you are not doing any disability awareness or DEI work in your school or community, but you like the topics shared on the podcast, I encourage you to head to GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys so that you can sign up for my emails, which often contain free links and resources related to the topics covered here on the podcast.
Diana Pastora Carson:
And I wanna share that I have several free beyond awareness resources also at my Teachers Pay Teachers store, which is called Disability as Diversity. Also in the show notes, you'll find links to other resources I've created for you to take the message of disability way beyond awareness, including a thematic unit for educators for my book Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights; a very stylish Beyond Awareness tote bag, if I do say so myself; a beautiful journal or notebook whose cover is graced with the amazing Beyond Awareness cover artwork of autistic artist Jack Medved; and some very cool fashionable tops, including a Beyond Awareness hooded sweatshirt, which I'm wearing right now, and a raglan t-shirt.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Finally, just a reminder that with each episode in the show notes, not only will you find the show's transcript or accessibility or just for preference, but I also list books written by disabled authors and other resources relevant to the topics discussed. So check out the show notes for each episode as we learn and grow together in going beyond awareness. (Bell rings signaling end of advertisement)
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay, next question, Judy. In your book you also spoke of Camp Jened, which is for those who don't know, a New York summer camp for people with disabilities, you spoke of it as being a place where you didn't feel like a burden. You said "camp was what it would feel like if society included us." So many of us educators and families want our schools to feel like that. We want all students to feel a sense of belonging. We want them to have access in all ways, physically, emotionally, academically. How can we achieve that? Where should we be putting our efforts?
Judy Heumann:
I don't think this is something that should only be looked at from the perspective of the students with disabilities. I think we're wanting to be looking for schools where the students all feel valued. Yes. Where the teachers believe that they are getting both the training before and while they're in school that helps them be more effective teachers. And that we recognize that we need to be looking at how to make sure all students are succeeding. Now, there maybe data which is being collected, which identifies certain populations of students in a school that are performing more poorly than others. So certainly you wanna be able to go in and be working on identifying what the causes of that are, and what needs to be done to help address those issues. But ultimately, I think we're really looking at embracing the totality of the school because it's the totality of the school that is, and the leadership of the principal, the superintendent, of the district, that really is enabling everyone to get a sense of the wholeness or fracturing that's going on in a classroom at school or district.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. Yes. Amen to that. Wow. Thank you. Judy. You just turned 75 years young and you've had a very active, engaged, productive life filled with diverse opportunities and experiences. What have you learned? Like what, what is one or two takeaways from all that you've learned? I mean, you've shared so much. Everything you say is pearls of wisdom. Right? But is there something that is especially significant to you personally?
Judy Heumann:
I would say the fact that our movement is growing, that people are beginning to recognize that disability is more a normal part of life than we were willing to think about in the past. And that as our movement enlarges people like yourself, who now have something labeled for what was going on with you, also are beginning to identify as a member of the disability community. And that, I think, enriches the work that's going on. The more people who really can feel that identifying as a disabled person is meaningful, both for us individually, but then collectively because we can begin to look at areas of common concern. And certainly we're not gonna have all the same areas of common concern. But there are numbers of areas where common concern is more likely to be occurring. And in that area, I think about things like healthcare.
Judy Heumann:
Healthcare is an issue that impacts everyone in any country around the world. But here in the US, because of the complexity of our healthcare system, the disjointedness, the inequities in the healthcare system, it's really something that we can be coming together not only as disabled people, but also with other healthcare activists. And we did an interview on the human perspective, uh, that want that people can hear in the week of December 21st, which includes, Ady Barkan. And Ady Barkan, was a healthcare activist. And then in the middle of his healthcare activism around the country, acquired ALS. And there's a film, Not Going Quietly, that was done by Nick Bruckman, and Ady Barkan is really the main focus of the film. Ady did not have a disability when he started getting very engaged initiative in healthcare reform under the Obama administration, and then was identified as having ALS, which is a progressive disability.
Judy Heumann:
The film is really one that I encourage people to watch, and obviously to listen to our podcast, The Heumann Perspective, as you mentioned. And you know, what we learn in that piece is the importance of greater collaboration, cooperation across movements. And Ady is a stark example of how disability can occur at any point. And as a non-disabled person, healthcare was something that he viewed as very important. And then as his disability was progressing, you learn in the film both about his ongoing activism across the country, but then also what was happening to him, not just physiologically, but in trying to get the supports that he needed to be able to continue to live an active life. He has two children and a wife. And the film is really great and I hope people like the discussion we had. But what's most important relationship to what you were discussing is for us as a society to recognize the common bond that we have.
Judy Heumann:
One of the issues in disability that I think we need to look at is people's fear of acquiring a disability. Because there's been such limited information, uh, the normal part of life about who we are. And we're, so, we're not only so many, but we have so many different types of disabilities, and we have so many different backgrounds that it's actually exciting. But it's also can be overwhelming, you know, in certain ways. But I think where we ultimately need to be moving is in a more unified way. And also, you know, CDC says there are 64 million disabled people in the US. Well, those 64 million people are not out there loud and proud. And if we could get 5 to 10 million out there, loud and proud, and in loud and proud, it's also, you know, really having an articulated agenda of the changes that we're needing in order to enable people to remain or become active participants of their community or as active as they wish to become.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you, Judy. And by the way, I don't think that I said happy birthday. I did, through LinkedIn, I did send you a text version of "estas son las mananitas.
Judy Heumann:
Thank you. My husband's from Mexico.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I know . I know.
Judy Heumann:
Yeah, I know you know, of course.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I bet you heard that from him. Hopefully you did.(Judy: "Yes") Good. So Judy, one thing that I love about reading your book, I just, I love that it seems like you've had such a purpose-driven life and a charmed life. Like you were obviously meant to do what you're doing. And you call them in your book, synchronicities. Your Life has been filled with synchronicities. Do you still feel that way? Like your life has been charmed or filled with these synchronicities? Is your path still unfolding before you, and what are you most proud of and, and what's next?
Judy Heumann:
You know, my life, like other people's lives kind of unfolds in ways that we can't predict. Yeah. And I don't think my life is any different now. When I was growing up as a disabled person for that matter, just as a person in the timeframe that I lived in. I mean, if you think about the last 75 years for anybody...when we were growing up, it was women weren't working that much, were wanting to work more. Now that's completely exploded. People looked at having a job and having that job, or with the same company for all of their life. That clearly is no longer the case. Technology that we never, when I was first growing up, really ever could wildly have imagined. And the opportunities that it has provided, and the hardships that it's provided. So I think many people are really, in my case, the reason I continue to do what I do is because I am not yet satisfied with what I am able to do on a daily basis, to achieve. And because I believe there are so many of us in the United States and around the world who are really fighting for the same thing: the ability to be respected, to be included, to have opportunities, and to be able to live lives like others. And while we've made meaningful progress in that regard in many, many different ways, we aren't by no means there yet.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Absolutely. Thank you, Judy. All right. This is the fun part. This is, this is gonna be just for fun, rapid fire questions. Are you ready? . Okay. What are your favorite memories? One, one favorite memory of your family, your parents?
Judy Heumann:
Oh, my father in synagogue coming over at the end and just kind of giving me a little wallop on the head or something.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Judy Heumann:
And my mother, my mother and her advocacy. I guess for my mother, one thing I think of is when we were young and we went to Hyde Park, which is where Roosevelt lived in New York State, and we went off to visit, it was tourists could go and Mrs. Roosevelt was there. And she wanted to go over and say hello to her. And I was young, nine or 10, and I was like, "No, Ma, we can't do that." And she made us go over. And I guess my dad also, because he was a butcher. So he was, they were just very supportive of us. We had a very active dining room table where we were always talking and debating. And my father was always kind of challenging us to think more and to know our facts. And he had bought the encyclopedia, and so he would pull out the encyclopedia or make us pull it out and do research. So, yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love that.
Judy Heumann:
Reading newspapers, going to the theater. We went to the ballet and toother forms of theater and museums all the time.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love that. I love your parents. That's why I had to ask the question. Yeah. I, no, your, in your book, you said your father used to call your mom "Mighty Might." (Judy: "Yes.") Mighty might. Yeah. She was a powerhouse. All right. Next question. This won't take as long. Favorite food?
Judy Heumann:
People ask me that all the time, and it depends on my mood. So, I like all kinds of food. I don't eat pork and I don't eat shellfish. I don't mix milk and meat. I'm not kosher, I'm kosher-stylish. But there's so many, like every Passover, I buy a salami, a kosher beef salami, and I eat it with matzah, mustard, Golden's mustard, every year. And I like tuna fish on matzah. I also love very, I love spicy food. I love Mexican food. I love Chinese food, Japanese food, Korean food. delicatessan food. I love Juniors Cheesecake Juniors from New York. I like dark chocolate. I like hot chocolate . I like, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't have, I like good potato latkes this time of year. when they're really, really crispy with apple sauce and sour cream. I, oh my goodness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
You're making me hungry. I so much for that. Being a quick one. And food is a big topic for Judy Human. Okay. Favorite entertainer.
Judy Heumann:
Oh, I love Itzhak Perlman, obviously for a lot of reasons. He's a brilliant violinist, but he's also a disabled person. Ali Stroker, who's gonna play me in the movie that's being made of my book.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yay!
Judy Heumann:
But there's so many other people out there, but I'll just name those as two.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Favorite song?
Judy Heumann:
Marlee Matlin. I love Marlee Matlin.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, Marlee Matlin, another entertainer.
Judy Heumann:
Yes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Song?
Judy Heumann:
It's my party and I'll cry if I want to.
Diana Pastora Carson:
There you go. I love that.
Judy Heumann:
"It's Judy's turn to cry."
Diana Pastora Carson:
Favorite book.
Judy Heumann:
Again, I don't have a favorite book. I like biographies. I like mysteries, I like, yeah. Biographies. Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Lovely. How about your favorite place to be?
Judy Heumann:
Hmm. I don't have a favorite. I mean, I love being home with my husband, of course. But I like being with friends and family, and I like having good food. I like playing games. I love playing games.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nice.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Do you have a New Year's resolution?
Judy Heumann:
You know, I don't usually, I feel like I do New Year's resolutions that are similar to what other people do. I'm gonna lose weight, I'm gonna do this, that, or the other. But I think in part because I'm Jewish and the new year is in the fall, and it's different, you know. It's really more like looking at what we've done differently that we wanna do differently in the future. So it's, you know, how you treat people, how I process things, how I make a difference in the world. Yeah. So, yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, wow. Well, you certainly do that, Judy. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for sharing today. Is there anything, any plug you wanna make for any of your anything coming up that you'd like my listeners to know about?
Judy Heumann:
I mean, I think what's important, and I think this is really a part of who you are, Diana, and that is really learning about what's going on. It's no one person. It's many people. Yes. So it's learning about disabled people with various forms of disabilities or organizations and what they're doing to, who's writing different books, who's active on social media. You know, there's good work that's going on in film and in music, with disabled people moving up in both of those arenas. It's really, not only becoming more knowledgeable, but I think also being more critical. So if things are going on that you feel are not appropriately representing disability, or not including, as you were saying in the beginning under DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion, and access, as some people put in there, why is that happening?
Judy Heumann:
That's still happening because there's been pressure within the organization, typically from some disabled people or people who have who have family members with disabilities. So it's good that these groups are being created, but there's not necessarily the support or thoughtfulness that needs to be given to really help the committee or whatever it's called, make the changes that need to be made. So I think the DEIs are important, but it really means that senior leadership needs on a regular basis to meaningfully be creating an environment where disabled staff feel that they can be honestly and openly critical and supportive of things that are happening. That the organization as a whole understands that when we're looking at DEI under disability. We're also wanting to make sure that disabled individuals are a part of all the other DEI groups, the LGBTQIA community, the Black group, the Latino group, the Asian group, the Pacific Islander Group, whichever groups may be there, disabled people are in all of those groups. And I think it's particularly important that disabled people can feel a part of those groups because the complexities of sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, all those things are impacting many disabled people. And how to be able to bring those discussions forward for change takes work.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Thank you for doing the work for so many years, Judy, and thank you for being here. It's been an honor and such a pleasure for me.
Judy Heumann:
Thank you so much. Diana, you should take a picture.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh, thank you! Yeah, let's do that!
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness: Disability Awareness That Matters. If this was helpful to you, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review this show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Spotify. You can also follow me, Diana, on Instagram @DianaPastoraCarson and on Facebook at www.Facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness. Or you can go to my website for more information at www.DianaPastoraCarson.com. My books include Beyond Awareness: Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K-12 Schools and Communities, as well as my children's book, Ed Roberts: Champion of Disability Rights. They can both be found on Amazon. For your free Beyond Awareness resource called the "5 Keys to Going Beyond Awareness," simply go to www.GoBeyondAwareness.com/keys. This podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again for joining me. Be well, be a lifelong learner, and let's be inclusive. See you next time.
