Diana Pastora Carson:
This episode is proudly sponsored by ABILITY Magazine, the leading magazine for health, disability, and human potential that strives to shatter myths and stereotypes that surround disabilities.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Welcome to the Beyond Awareness, disability Awareness That Matters podcast. I'm your host, Diana Pastora Carson. Here you'll find a safe space to learn and grow with leaders in education, disability studies, disability advocacy, and diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. Specifically, we look at how disability fits into diversity, equity, inclusion, access and belonging, and how to frame disability awareness in the context of educating K through 12 communities. This show serves educators, parents, and community members who strive to learn and or teach about disability in a research-based and respectful way, moving beyond simple awareness and diving into inclusive and socially responsive conversations. Now, let's go beyond awareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Beyond Awareness, disability Awareness That Matters. I'm delighted today to have my friend and colleague who we've tried to get this together for a long time, and finally we made it happen. This is Savitha, and I'm gonna have Savitha introduce herself and share a little bit about your background and your work that you're working. I know you're working on your PhD. You're almost there. Congratulations and best of wishes there, Savitha and the focus, the focus of your research as well. So go ahead and introduce yourself and welcome.
Savitha Sundar:
Thank you, Diana, for having me on your podcast. I feel honored, and it's it's always lovely listening to you and talking to you. So, a little bit about my background. My name is Savitha Sundar. I am an occupational therapist. I have, I'm originally from South India, from a state called Tamil Nadu, and I'm proud to say that I speak the oldest living language, which is Tamil. I got into occupational therapy right after high school when I was looking for a career, and I happened upon occupational therapies. Serendipitously fell in love with it. It resonated with who I am as a person and what I wanted to do with my life. It just was so meaningful. And I finished my under graduation in India and came to the United States in 2001 to get my masters. And since then, I have stayed on and life, I let life lead my .
Savitha Sundar:
My years, my path, I I guess moved around, you know, due to the jobs that I landed up in and marriage and family circumstances. And long story short, landed in California where I started my practice in schools and in 2007. And since then, I have stuck with school-based practice, while I also do other practices on the side. But my main focus as an occupational therapist has been in schools in education and primarily with students with the most significant support needs or more extensive support needs who are most vulnerable to segregation. And over the course, I you know, built an interest in supporting inclusive participation in schools. And that's a story on its own, but that's a little brief introduction about who I am and where I come from.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So I understand you're working on your PhD now?
Savitha Sundar:
Yes. Yes, I am. I am, yes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Congratulations And best wishes with that. What is the focus of your research?
Savitha Sundar:
Yes. So I am in the fifth year of my PhD, and almost there I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. So the focus of my PhD is the role of occupational therapy in enabling inclusion for students with extensive support needs. So I'm doing a multiple case study of inclusive practices of school-based occupational therapists. So you know, the reason I I chose this topic, or the reason I got into my PhD is because while working in schools with students in self-contained classrooms, predominantly I realized or came across situations where they did so much better when the context was different, when the context was in the presence of their peers without disabilities in the general education community, I felt my students, a different side of them came out. And so my, my focus at that point probably 10 years ago, was, how can I enable this to happen more in my practice?
Savitha Sundar:
And occupational therapy with it's broad scope addressing different areas of human occupations, social participation is such a key area, and OTs predominantly are, are called to support areas of motor skills in schools like, you know, fine motor skills, handwriting, sensory issues self-regulation issues. Those are like the areas that are given to OTs to address. But I felt like the social participation aspect was so key and so important. So I started focusing on this social inclusion and, you know, once you start developing an interest or you see things differently, you start digging more. And then the whole idea of inclusion came to my to my view. And the more I read, and the more I saw, and the more it made total sense. And I felt like, why aren't we focusing on this? Why aren't we as educators such a huge need in education?
Savitha Sundar:
Right? So there are two needs basically. So there's one huge need in education to create inclusive learning communities for students. And people have been crying out loud for years to make that happen, right? And and there's another need in occupational therapy practice in schools, because OTs have always felt that we are not truly represented in our practice. We are siloed into these areas of handwriting or motor skills. And we, we didn't go to school and really, OT school didn't teach us how to support handwriting skills. It didn't teach us those specific elements. Those are things that we have learned in practice, because that was seen as a need and we addressed that need. So given our holistic approach, yeah, given our holistic training to enable access and participation in life's occupations, that that's as broad as what OT is, right? So given that scope, we can ideally fill this need in education.
Savitha Sundar:
We can be so instrumental in supporting the efforts that schools put in to make education accessible, to offer all learners. So that was like my aha moment to like, okay, I, I think, I think I wanna learn more about this. I wanna do something about it. So OT can really play a key role in making this a reality. In schools we can be so instrumental in supporting access and participation in the general education context. And so far, we've always seen access and participation within a self-contained classroom context within a self special education context. But the context is such a key aspect of learning, right? If you remove a student from a rich context and whatever you do within a segregated context, you are not giving them the full experience of learning.
Diana Pastora Carson:
So I love the focus of your research, and I love your podcast inclusive Occupations. And I'm wondering what, what led you, you know, everybody's got their why, what has driven you to get involved in, first of all, occupational therapy, but even more so, what has been your driving force or your reason why you're so focused on inclusion?
Savitha Sundar:
You know honestly, Diana, this is a question that I have asked myself many times. And being a thinker and, and being a philosophical thinker and an overthinker, sometimes I've found it very hard to articulate my why very clearly. However I think over time, if I look at my different decisions in life and different actions in life, I just feel I feel like I, when I see injustices happening, I just naturally, I feel like I'm naturally a little extra sensitive to injustices. And it's happened throughout my life. Whenever I see injustice in any form happening with my friends or in class, I'm always like voicing my opinion and just getting upset about it, or saying, why aren't we doing anything about it? So that sort of has been like a common a a thread throughout the course of my life.
Savitha Sundar:
So I think when I came across, or just when I became, when I awoke to the fact that children with disabilities are not getting the fair learning experiences in school, I think it just was natural for me to do something about it. So if you don't know when you are in ignorance, then you don't really do much about it, right? (Diana: Right.) So when you, when you become aware of something, and if you are somebody who has always wanted to do something to alleviate injustice, then it just naturally becomes your calling. So life sort of kept popping up these experiences all along to show like, here, here it's happening. This is what you can do better. This is what you can do better. And so I just couldn't
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Savitha Sundar:
Get off that track. So I think my why is that I, I strive to, to make things fair in this world. Yeah,
Diana Pastora Carson:
You clearly view access to inclusive education as a social justice issue. And oftentimes when we talk about quote unquote special education in our minds, in the minds of society, we frame disability as what inherently needs to be addressed and remediated. But so many, like you, who are proponents of inclusionary practices have a different foundational understanding of what disability is. Can you dive in a little bit to help us reframe our understanding of what special education is and how you envision it in terms of benefiting students with disabilities and all students for that matter?
Savitha Sundar:
Okay. I wanna start over by saying that we have to, we, when we realize that disability is really not a minority in this world, we, like 15% of the world's population have some form of disability, right? And then, and if you think about the people who are impacted around that individual with a disability, it, it clearly becomes a majority. So it's so common among us. And the other thing is, I, I also personally have had loved ones with invisible disabilities and their silent struggles, and I see it really is a common thread, right? This idea of lack of understanding and lack of access to what's fair to them is a common thread that we see across humanity for that matter. And our special education practices are constructed based upon this medical framework. So therapists and special education professionals who work on habilitation or rehabilitation are inherently biased to look at an individual with a deficit lens, what is wrong with you?
Savitha Sundar:
And how can I help you be more normal? Right? Like the majority of us, or like the majority in the way that we have defined normal, right? So in my experience, and from the experiences of several related service providers, I frequently see that our services and supports take priority over access to education. Although we sort of say that, you know, the whole reason they're getting related services is so they can benefit from their special education. Parents, educators, they prioritize their therapy time for students. Mm-Hmm. one-on-one in, in interaction with a therapist, like this exotic service that they're getting in schools, and it should be fought for. And it should be, you know it's the most important thing that they get mm-Hmm. as a, as a individual called the qualified with special education needs. And the priority, I think should be on how educational environment can be enriched to make learning more meaningful that lead to better post-school success.
Savitha Sundar:
So students are not there to receive special education services. They are there to receive high quality education, and that education can only be given in a rich context. So the person and the context are so inseparable. And I feel like interventions should be dynamically focusing on both the person and the environment, both the physical, social and the academic environment. So I not sure if I answered your question directly, but I think when one has awakened to inclusionary practices you really see the need to reframe our approach. Yeah. So to answer your question okay. Let me project a vision for an ideal education system, and then back up to the present. Okay. So how do you envision special education to look like? I think that general education should look more like special education. Hmm. So like, no student will be a special education student.
Savitha Sundar:
All students will have an education tailored to their unique needs, and all our, all educators and supporting professionals will work with all students. And the efforts will be directed in creating learning contexts where students learn with mutual appreciation of differences. Hmm. And differences sustainabilities will be part of the fabric of, you know, all learning. And, and, and I think zooming to the present, are we there yet? Small segments and sections are actually implementing and making this work in different small charter school communities. So it's not really an impossible idealism. So I think with a mindset shift to believing that students with disabilities, even those with the most significant cognitive disabilities, truly belong in the school community with their peers, our efforts will be directed towards making that work rather than taking on that readiness approach where like, oh, this, this child is not ready yet to be in a, in a in a general education context.
Savitha Sundar:
They have to learn the skill sets to belong there, right? Right. And, and one common example that I often hear is when you talk about segregating students, like they need a smaller environment. They're overstimulated by the general education context. And, and if, when we reframe this, and so therefore they need to be in a separate classroom where kids with similar needs are put together. And if you reframe this from an inclusion mindset, we should be thinking about smaller, quieter classrooms, working spaces with a mix of students, not just students who all have a diagnosis of autism in one class. And everybody, you know, truly these small self-contained classrooms have higher noise levels than a general education classroom. Adult noises, you know, teachers voices. Those things are just overwhelming. And it's really not justifiable at all to say that they need a quieter, smaller self-contained special education classroom. No. They just need a smaller classroom with a mix of students who understand them, how the students in general education who also are sensitive to noises. And when you bring kids with super sensitivities or like you, you acknowledge their sensitivities more than you acknowledge the sensitivities of kids who are in general education classrooms. Right? So if you bring and put together kids with those needs in one classroom, I think that is an inclusive mindset.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Thank you. I love that vision for our classrooms for inclusive education. It reminded me of a wonderful podcast I listened to, namely yours, Inclusive Occupations. And you had a guest, I believe her name was Lakshmi, but
Savitha Sundar:
Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
She said something that resonated so well with me, and it kind of what you just said reminded me of what she said. She said, "impairment exists, impairment exists, but disability ability lies at the intersection of the individual and the environment."
Savitha Sundar:
So true
Diana Pastora Carson:
Impairment exists, but disability lies at the intersection of the individual and the environment. And so what you're talking about is not changing the individual or fixing the individual. You're talking about changing completely changing our mindsets and our environments to meet the needs of all students.
Savitha Sundar:
Yes. And I think when we take an inclusive mindset, we're not, we're having, we're working on this dynamic relationship between the environment and the individual.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Right?
Savitha Sundar:
It's not only the environment, it's not just the individual. It's both.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Savitha Sundar:
How can we, and the environment is not just the physical environment, it's the peers, it's the people in, in society. It, it's addressing all of those components.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Oh, thank you. So in your experience as an OT and as a colleague to other therapists, such as physical therapists and language, speech and hearing therapists, where are we in terms of training at universities? And of course that affects, you know, the perceptions and the, the, the work that's done within our education system as well. How do you see the therapies being provided in schools, and what are some changes if, if there are changes to be made? What do you think are some changes that should be prioritized in order to support inclusive practices in terms of both therapist training at the university level and credential level as well as in the larger school system?
Savitha Sundar:
Yeah. It's a very loaded question. And it's fundamentally asking therapy professionals who really come from a very medical background to rethink this whole intervention process. And, and, you know, we, on a day-to-day level, we practice doing what we are most comfortable doing and what, what comes easy to us, right? Right. And for us to stop, stop, stop. What you're doing is not the best you gotta be. Doing something else is very hard for any of us to change. So I think there is no a linear path to like teaching people. I think when school practices change, then I think related services will change to support that. And when related service people are trained to see themselves as "participation access interventionists" rather than deficit remediators, then we will, then we will advocate for our practices to support inclusion. So it's, it's both ways.
Savitha Sundar:
It happens both ways. So I think, and, and, you know, when systems change efforts happen, it's always addressing all the stakeholders in that system. And we look at changing our society to be more inclusive. We really have to address everyone and, and, and yeah. Be looking at education. Then I think I, I really think that there is so much research in education right now that, that the, that the question is not whether inclusion inclusive practices are for all or not. The question is how do we make it a reality? That's where the, the struggle is, right? Right. So when in, in our practice, in in current school, in current occupational therapy education, it is so varied, right? It's, so we, we are a profession that has a, has always had an identity crisis because we are so comprehensive and so broad, and we have evolved.
Savitha Sundar:
It's a very new profession, and we have evolved to address needs of society, contemporary needs of society across time. So initially it was mental health. We started off seeing that people with mental illness were institutionalized. And there was the treatment was bad. And so the moral treatment movement came in and, and many of the Quakers started the occupational therapy profession. Then we moved on to the World War Times where, you know, people with disabilities were trying to recover. And when they were engaged in meaningful activities the, their recovery was so much more faster than giving them just exercises, right? So different times, different needs have been met, addressed by the, the profession. Okay? Like right now, mental health is a huge need in schools and society, and we are jumping in to support that. And, and all of this leads to inclusive practices, right? So inclusive creating inclusive learning communities. And that's a need in society right now. And OT can step up to do that. All of US related service professionals can step up to support that. So giving us the training to see that giving us those foundation, like right now, our practice still has a lot of focus on medical skills and in rehabilitation sort of work. But we don't hear, we don't get a lot of training on how school systems work,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right?
Savitha Sundar:
All those schools employ the majority of occupational therapy professionals. So among occupational therapists, we more than 25% of the OT population work in schools. And does our education and our training reflect an understanding of how schools work, how curriculums are designed? Probably not, because in the past, OTs were working on giving therapy in the school, not making education accessible for students. But now with, when we reframe our, our, our approach to, like, we need to make education accessible and fair, and for all learners, for all students, then we're going to not just focus on fixing fine motor skills, but looking at how do, how do these fine motor skills lead this kid to do better in a general education context, right? Have more friends to live a fuller life. You know, it'll, it'll just, you will address all these skills. I'm not saying that you're not going to work on handwriting, but then you will ask the question, how does, how does this lead to inclusive participation?
Diana Pastora Carson:
Right.
Savitha Sundar:
Does that make sense? Yes. Wow. I'm sorry if I sort of like rambled along.
Diana Pastora Carson:
No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. When you advocate this way within your school system, or, or when, you know others like-minded professionals advocate for inclusive practices, do you encounter resistance, whether it be from other therapists, from administration, from general educators, from parents, and if so, do you have advice for others who are listening related to how to respond to that resistance? Do you have any stories that people who've transformed their perspectives?
Savitha Sundar:
Yes. I think, I think I think it is very varied across. I think people will not disagree that we should be supporting inclusive education, for sure. However, they will see we're not the only ones to do it. It's not our responsibility when the school is doing it, then, you know, we'll play along. Mm-Hmm, I really want us to go one step further and say, you know, but we need to advocate for it too. And, and one of the constructs that we talk about in occupational therapy is occupational justice, which is which is really defined as the justice that calls for inclusive participation in society. And meaning to say that if we do not address justice related issues in the context, then we will not be able to provide good quality practice. So it's so intertwined, right? You have to address justice issues in your practice.
Savitha Sundar:
So your practice is more meaningful and effective, right? So you cannot separate those two. So I think, for example, let me just give you an example. So for a student, when you're working on your IEP goals, right? And if you put a goal to say the student will write on a line or will, you know, be able to button his shirt and you provide 30 minutes of occupational therapy service once a week for a whole year, right? That's a goal. And you're working on it, it's so clear. You check it off. I've done this, I've worked on fine motor skills to help strengthen their abilities, to put their buttons on. I've set up workstations in the classroom where they can work on buttoning, done. The other thing looking at it is, is this child able to participate in in coming to school and, you know, with peers hanging backpack, putting away your jacket, getting into the classroom, being part of circle time.
Savitha Sundar:
Is that happening? That's what is fair. The circle time has so much going on. Let me back up to a different example. Is this child having a fulfilling recess experience? There's buttoning skill. There is a rich recess experience, okay? Frequently kids with disabilities who tend to be in self-contained classrooms, when they go to recess, they're standing by themselves, okay? There is an adult always monitoring them and watching them. So, so if you write an OT goal to say the student will engage in recess, will participate in an activity, in a recess activity that is meaningful to the child at least three times a week, okay? Then your intervention will go into going into recess, going to the natural context, creating play opportunities for a kid who does not like to climb stairs or does not like to go down slides, but setting up maybe puzzles, maybe setting up music stations at recess throwing some chalks there maybe having, pulling together a bunch of peers to say, you guys are gonna play this game together.
Savitha Sundar:
Say, okay, Johnny here, he really finds it very hard to be part of, you know, the running and playing that you guys do. Why don't you all include him in your play? So training the peers to give that rich recess experience, I think would be a more meaningful inclusion, a meaningful goal that OT can address. Mm, buttoning can happen naturally. You don't need the expertise of an OT to work on those skills. It takes repeated practice for you to learn to button. Same with academic access. Academic access is not just learning to write your name. It's not just learning. It's like, okay, in the classroom they're talking about they're reading a poem from Maya Angelou. How can I make that available for the student with cognitive differences or difficulties, or who has been diagnosed with an intellectual disability and therefore has been deemed not appropriate for this general education classroom and is in a self-contained class?
Savitha Sundar:
How can I make that experience of enjoying Maya Angelou's book in that classroom and, and express learning by, you know, creating a board where they can make answer choices have choices to answer questions about the book. Okay. And when you asked about resistance, so I come in, so when I moved to Texas I come in with this great passion for like, oh yeah, I'm gonna like redefine my role in schools, right? And so I'm called in to support a classroom with K to five students in a self-contained classroom, right? And there are kids working on writing whatever, right? So the goal that the kid was the concern of the teacher was the kid had a very poor pencil grip, and she really wanted me to work on fixing his pencil grip. And in my mind, I felt fixing that pencil grip was not as valuable as seeing that this kid is not even going to recess every day, is not going to the playground every day, because they are afraid he will run away.
Savitha Sundar:
So he needs to learn to listen to the teacher before he can go to the playground. That was the, the requirement for him. Hmm. So I'm here, I'm a therapist. I will help you work with this kid, learn to come back when he's in recess so he can access recess better. Okay? That's what I wanna do. And I'm like, I'll take him to recess. And of course, there was a lot of resistance to say that that's not your job. You're not, you are not to you're supposed to be working. And, and the principal said, oh, I went in that classroom. It's not just that one kid who has OT services, a lot of kids in that classroom who have very bad pencil grips, and you should be supporting all of them to have better pencil grips. I'm not saying this is representative of all schools or all learning environments, but this is the, the framework with which you're seeing therapy services seeing therapists.
Savitha Sundar:
But if, if, if I can be allowed to go in and work with the kid in recess, and the, these kids don't go to the cafeteria for lunch, they eat in their classrooms. When they do go to a cafeteria, they're sitting as a class by themselves. They're not sitting with their age related peers. But when they do sit with their age related peers, the interaction is so natural. There's so much of rich experiences that they get when they sit with their peers. So that takes effort. It doesn't happen just like that. You need to really, you know, make that as part of their routines. And when, when problems occur, you call in a specialist to help you address that problem. Don't call in a specialist with who comes with a minimum of, of a doctorate degree. Right? Now, most schools offer a doctorate degree for kids to prefer for therapists coming out of school. You don't want that highly qualified individual to address outdated needs. You know, I think there are more important issues that these therapists can address.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hmm.
Savitha Sundar:
So do I make sense?
Diana Pastora Carson:
You're talking... Yeah, you do. I mean, it's, it's rare to hear that perspective from an ot, at least in my experience. But I love it because you're looking at the long-term life quality activities that are important that are based in access to social development to physical development, to emotional development that are often ignored because we need to have the, what is that pencil grasp? You know, the tri-something grasp, I can't remember what it's called, but , you know, it's so the focus and not that, you know, it may help, it may, you know, it may help with developing muscles in the hands that will help with other, the, the pincer grasp. That's what I was looking at. Ubut is that the be all end all goal? Is that the, is that the best use of your time when you could help with those things that are critical, like a safety issue, running off the playground and not coming back? Well, what's motivating that child to come back? Because it seems like they're just, they're just being feeling like they're wanting to be controlled as opposed to being listened to and honored. And I see that as your focus. So I appreciate that.
Savitha Sundar:
And these are complex problems that you, you need a bunch of, you know, minds to, to, to grapple with and come up with a solution, right. It's not an easy problem. And there you need the skill sets of specialists.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Yeah. What's something that keeps you motivated when you see such limited mindsets and slow progress at times?
Savitha Sundar:
I realize change takes time and, and I have nothing personal against anybody who has a different mindset, because at a certain point, I was there, and if I had not been exposed to what I was exposed to, I would, I would also have the same mindset. So what keeps me motivated is that change takes time. I'm well aware of that. We just have to be at it. And every time I hear other people also resonating with the same idea, and actually seeing OT practitioners doing that in their practice, I feel like there is hope. We, we can, we are, it's a process and we are going in that direction and it will happen. So something or the other really comes up to to fill my cup, I think, to keep at it.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. You know,
Savitha Sundar:
Like, I question myself, you know, is this really an OTs area of concern? Well, maybe, maybe I should you know not get so passionate about, you know, changing the world tomorrow. Maybe this is just you know, maybe there are other perspectives to this too. So I keep asking those questions to myself, and those answers do come, those answers do come through listening to, you know, your podcast or listening to other you know, inclusion podcasts and people sharing their experiences. And I get those answers to say, like, sometimes slow down, sometimes, you know? Yeah. This is what is the practical issue, and we need to, you know, find strategies to work on it. So, yes.
Diana Pastora Carson:
You, you mentioned that you, you know, you've been there and it takes time as a podcaster, you get to interview so many interesting people and hear so many differing perspectives. I know for me, I have enlightening moments. I get to take away from the progressive thinkers like you who share their time with me on the podcast. Is there anything that you've taken away from guests that you hadn't thought of or considered previously? Any aha moments that stand out to you?
Savitha Sundar:
Lots of them. Lots of them. Yeah. You know, when I first shared that we always try to make special education look like general education, it's general education that needs to start looking more like special education. And that was something that one of the teachers I worked with in the past, I interviewed him in the podcast, and it was his his I guess insight. And, and that was an aha moment for me. Wow. And I definitely, like when I, in the current season that I'm doing, I'm interviewing, I'm interviewing young adults with disabilities who have navigated their you know, navigated this, all these different struggles to be included in society and listening to their stories. And the, the most recent episode was by the, no it's actually a three part series. And the first, and, and this is an OT that I really look up to, and she shares about her inclusive practices with three of her students.
Savitha Sundar:
And I think listening to, to how she, you know, there is idealism and this pragmaticism we can all talk about like, oh, inclusion is the right thing to do. You all need to, the school needs to change. But if I can actually make that change in my own sphere on a day-to-day basis, I have done a lot. One action is so much more than a, a ton of ideas, right? So when I, when I hear the stories that these therapists share about how they have made education accessible to students, it really like, wow, those are great ideas. And then from there, new ideas stem in. Like, I, right now, I'm taking a break from practice. I will start in August soon, but I always feel like I wish I was there. I wish I'm like working with the kids and adapting you know, their, their their environments and their education, their programs and their support systems.
Savitha Sundar:
You know, I'm, I'm just motivated to, to do that. So, yes. And Dr. Cheryl Jorgensen, her interview, one of the things she said is when people always say all students everyone, but you don't talk about this 1% of, of the disability population who've never been part of that all. Yeah. And you just schools that are school districts who just send them to a different program altogether and call themselves inclusive, right? Mm. And, and, and that community is, it is just such a big realization that we need to really acknowledge and say that like, you are not inclusive. We don't include the ones in the ends of the spectrum.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah. Thank you so much. Do you have a particular author or workshop or mentor book that has transformed how you think about disability and your role as an OT?
Savitha Sundar:
Not one. Not one, but over time, definitely. I have a few books that really stood out for me. One of the earlier books that I read was it's more than just being in by Cheryl Jorgenson. I really look up to her insights. And I I've also had her on my podcast, I think I mentioned that. So her, her book really has some practical ideas, suggestions on how you can make inclusion a reality. And, and also Shelly Moore's book I'm waiting for her new one, but the, the one that she has One Without the Other that was such, I did an audio book of that. And I so loved her insights and her practical ideas. Also, of course, all her Instagram posts and the Five Moore Minutes videos, they're all so good.
Diana Pastora Carson:
I love Shelly. She's also been on this podcast.
Savitha Sundar:
Yes, yes, yes. And yeah, so so simply, so elegantly, she infuses those huge concepts. I wish, I wish I had Shelly's skill sets to create mind shifts, which I think she's doing very well right now. I also think Leading for All, I think was a book that I read again a while ago about a school that went through,changes.Trying to, I think Jennifer Spencer-Iiams her book. Uthat was one of my,early on reads, leading for All How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools. Awesome. Yeah,
Diana Pastora Carson:
I'll put those links in the show notes as well for anybody who wants to refer back to those. Thank you. Okay. Are you ready for some fun rapid fire questions?
Savitha Sundar:
Sure. . Okay.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Let's start with the easy one. Coffee or tea?
Savitha Sundar:
Tea
Diana Pastora Carson:
Sweats or yoga pants.
Savitha Sundar:
Yoga pants.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hopscotch or jump rope,
Savitha Sundar:
Hopscotch.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Beaches or mountains?
Savitha Sundar:
Mountains.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Paper books. Kindle or audio books?
Savitha Sundar:
Audio books. . Any day.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah, me too. Favorite food?
Savitha Sundar:
Favorite food? Oh, I am a big foodie. And so that's going to be, that's probably the hardest question I could answer. . I just love food.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Question of the entire podcast episode is favorite food.
Savitha Sundar:
Yes. I love food. I seafood, eat seafood. . Well, I'm vegetarian, so I'm, I say anything that is vegetarian, I probably will eat.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yes. Wonderful. . Favorite memory of your childhood?
Savitha Sundar:
. So, okay. So I always wanted to have a dog as a kid. And my mom was so against us having a, a dog or any pet for that matter. She was like, you are enough for me to handle, I don't want another one. And so I found a stray dog, a stray puppy. So in India, it's very common to have a whole bunch of stray dogs in the streets, and they have glitters of puppies. And I grabbed one of the puppies and I hid it in my my friend's house, , because her dad was a little bit more easy. So I convinced him that I'm gonna raise this dog. I'll take all responsibility, but you have to keep it in your house, .
Savitha Sundar:
So I, I remember how I tried to raise that puppy in my friend's house, and the trouble I gave to that poor family Oh. Because the dog was like crying through the night. So it's more like it's a favorite memory because I just, I'm so grateful to that dad. So this is my friend who lived, who she and her dad were at home, and her mom worked abroad. So her dad was just a very happy, jolly person who was just this fun uncle to be with. So all my times spent with him and the puppy and, and my friend were like, some of my fondest childhood memories. .
Diana Pastora Carson:
Nice. Did you actually keep the puppy long-term with them?
Savitha Sundar:
Well, for a while, and then I think the puppy just ran away.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Oh.
Savitha Sundar:
Too much for the puppy to handle me and the dad. .
Diana Pastora Carson:
.
Savitha Sundar:
Okay.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. All right. Favorite quote?
Savitha Sundar:
Favorite quote. Can I share two quotes? Sure. So one of my favorite quotes is about inclusion, and that's, "Inclusion is not bringing people into what already exists. It is making a new space, a better space for everyone." This is George Dei's quote. And I think that sort of stands in front of me when I talk about, when I think about inclusion. It's not just an ideal, it's action. And then the other quote is, "Alone, you can go fast. Together, you can go farther."
Diana Pastora Carson:
Hmm.
Savitha Sundar:
Again, I don't know who the author is, who, who that, you know, I, I use this app called Insight Timer,
Diana Pastora Carson:
Uhhuh,
Savitha Sundar:
, and it pops up different nice quotes every time. And this was one thing that I loved so much and kept it in front of me all the time, so
Diana Pastora Carson:
That Wonderful. I love Insight Timer as well. Something that you are proud of, Savita.
Savitha Sundar:
You know, I'm really proud that I started this podcast because I'm really, honestly, a very self-conscious person when it comes to being on camera or being speaking out. But I, I have put myself out there as I, you can tell that my earlier podcasts were pretty primitive and very , very raw and not very refined, I would say. And then I have grown in that process with me learning more about this topic and this inclusion. I, I feel like I'm, I'm proud of the fact that I put myself out there to share what I know without like growing together with, with my community, you know, that's something I'm proud of. And I'm also proud of the fact that I really stuck with my PhD for five years and
Diana Pastora Carson:
Kidding.
Savitha Sundar:
. Yeah. It's really like such an a, a amazing experience, personal transformation experience as you learn and, and realize how little, you know, and
Diana Pastora Carson:
Yeah.
Savitha Sundar:
So those are two things I would say I'm proud of.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That's great. And isn't that what it's all about, is to continue our learning, you know, not perceive ourselves as the ultimate experts, but continuing to listen to the voices of disabled people, disabled students, disabled individuals in our communities, and keep learning from them. From one another. Yeah. Sure,
Savitha Sundar:
Sure.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Okay. Last question. Something a child has said or done that brightened your day, made you laugh or changed your entire world?
Savitha Sundar:
You know, I, I have shared this story in my own podcast. I've shared it with a lot of people, and I will share it again. I, like I said, this one kid that I worked with for many years from preschool who early on in my career worked on him feeding himself, and he would never hold a spoon, and we couldn't figure out why he wasn't feeding himself. And one day when he had the opportunity to be with his, his peers, who he adored, who they were just, you know, older girls who came and volunteered in that classroom. And when they came in and they saw him, they sat with him like, oh, you have yogurt, I have yogurt too. Let's eat. And he just started eating, like he's been doing it forever here. We were like writing goals for self-feeding and, you know, trying to do all kinds of things. And then just the presence, just wanting to feel belonged with the, the people he admired and looked up to made all the change. So that was a real aha moment. A mo a moving moment I should say, to say, this is, this surpasses all the interventions that I can do. If I can give them the opportunity to be in the right context, then my interventions will be so much more valuable, meaningful, and
Diana Pastora Carson:
Me and meaningful relationships that matter to the individual.
Savitha Sundar:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That's beautiful. Savitha, how can listeners find you? Do you have a website, social media, email you wanna share? And I'll put it all in the show notes.
Savitha Sundar:
Sure, yeah. I'm on social media, I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn and my podcast is Inclusive Occupations. You can find that on any podcasting platform. And my email is [email protected]. You can reach me there.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom with us today. I appreciate you.
Savitha Sundar:
Thank you, Diana.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Beyond Awareness Disability Awareness That Matters. I love providing this podcast to support you in your passionate disability awareness and inclusionary practices work in our schools and communities. And I hope you'll help me to help others by promoting this episode far and wide. You can also proactively support this podcast in the following ways, subscribe, rate, and review this show on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to this episode. It really means the world to me to have your support in this way because it increases the chances of others getting to hear the messages presented in each episode. For more valuable resources that align with the values of this podcast, you can visit my website, DianaPastoraCarson.com, where you'll find links to my priceless free resource, How to Talk About Disability with Kids, as well as my blog, where I share my thoughts as an educator and sibling advocate, my flexible online Beyond Awareness Basics course, my books, including the beautifully illustrated children's book, Ed Roberts Champion of Disability Rights, as well as my comprehensive guide for anyone wanting to do disability awareness work.
Diana Pastora Carson:
That is the book entitled Beyond Awareness, Bringing Disability into Diversity Work in K -12 Schools and Communities. Now, while I love this book so much, and I believe you should have it in your library as a resource, I do understand that time is of the essence. So if you are super busy like me, and you just need something quick, easy and convenient, that will get to the point I have just what you need, you should definitely get your hands on my handy, trifold laminated Beyond Disability Awareness Educators' Guide, published by NPR, Inc. Again, all of these resources can be found at dianapastoracarson.com. You can also follow me, Diana, on Instagram at Diana Pastora Carson, and at facebook.com/GoBeyondAwareness.
Diana Pastora Carson:
Podcast transcription and podcast guest information can be found in the show notes. Intro and outro music has been provided courtesy of my son, Emmanuel Castro. Thank you again. Be well. Be a lifelong learner. And let's be inclusive. See you next time.
